You haven't played 1 game with me. Btw. BS stats are at 47% in Dota 2. He is not the easiest pubstomper to play, since you have no lanedomination against many heros (qop, nevermore, invoker, huskar and many more). And if you were not such a typical bad mannered dotaplayer you would have read my posts, before you judge. So go check my post with the exact description of my enemy team, and open your mouth again.
Btw Anon, for a Player that have not even reached high matchmaking games you shout out very loud.
I used to pick them often, cause they make you independent. If you check my games, you will find out that i am a quite nice guy, that does not flame (mostly) and always play his role. If i pick a supportive hero, i play full support. And mostly i play support, since support is always missing (nobody likes to play support). My last game i bought chick, chickupgrade and wards with Riki, cause nobody else wanted to do that.
Before you now start flaming on the rikipick: I didnt pick Riki without using my brain. I picked him cause he is a natural diffucarrier and so a natural counter to ursa and sk.
I actually noticed this MM "problem" when dota 2 was just launched and made some testing myself on 4 different accounts. What I've found is:
- If you are a skilled player picking random heroes each time you keep wining/losing about 1 of 2 games and everything goes smooth, if there are nooobs/feeder then they exist in both teams for most of cases.
- However if you are a skilled player picking your "ownage" hero and keep wining 8-10 games with no lose then something really strange starts happening to you. You get noobs/feeders in your team against skilled player stacks. And what's really amazing, if you keep losing next 8-10 games to get back to 50% you don't get back to "normal matchmaking". Simply because your KDA is still good (even though you keep losing) you'll get noobs/feeders again and again.
Probably the best solution (or I would call it some sort of hack) here is gathering a team and playing with stacks on your own. Of course for this case too after some wins in a row you'll play with a pro stack, but at least you'll play nice match and maybe learn something new rather than playing solo and getting annoyed from pointless matches.
BTW Yesterday was watching Dendi's live games, he lost 4 games in a row and in certain places used bad-language/blaming. I totally understand him because his teammates were too far from himself/opposite-team.
This happened to me today I got a 5lose streak cause of the shittiest teammates then cant say miss or understand the word miss...Like today i jungle lifestealer and the Viper nvr said miss once and qop ganked me 4times... it gets irritating and this keeps bringing my win rate down so low
not sure if the people here know this but the game litterally does say fuck you when you are winning more. IT IS INTENTIONAL. The op 9v1 here probably belongs in high, during the time of the original post he was recently tested by the system for very high games,as the system will periodically see if you actually belong in higher matchmaking. im going to assume he was booted down because he cant sustain playing in very high matchmaking and subsiquently went into normal mm. These games in normal are what is giving him the problem.
The way this works is that people either enter at normal or high when they first start the game depending on what they choose in the questionaire at the start. They then play games using a hidden mmr/elo system that tracks their wins against their opponents, its not about how much you win its about who you win against. If you have 33% win rate but only lose to the best people in the server and win all your other games i suspect you will still be in very high. The system will periodically atttempt to match you with higher lvl people to see if you belong in that matchmaking category .
THIS IS WHERE THE GAME WILL FUCK YOU. If you were wining and the game decides you have a shot at moving up, they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents and stack all odds against you. If you are able to overcome this, you get to move into higher matchmaking. Truth is, most people fail to carry a super bad team and they dont move up, those that are stronger move on to very high and stay there. Some people who have a lot of games periodically get an opportunity to go into very high and the system puts them back down after they are found to be not worthy.
350 games, and 90% o my games r in very high bracket (if not playing with my noob m8s)..
after a 10 win streak, i got fu**ed up, playeres against me bcame very very good that i couldnt do anything, i just startedd losing the game one after the other..
"- However if you are a skilled player picking your "ownage" hero and keep wining 8-10 games with no lose then something really strange starts happening to you. You get noobs/feeders in your team against skilled player stacks. And what's really amazing, if you keep losing next 8-10 games to get back to 50% you don't get back to "normal matchmaking". Simply because your KDA is still good (even though you keep losing) you'll get noobs/feeders again and again."
That's not the result of matchmaking failing during your "tests"... That's all you thinking that you have a hero you own with, and that you are better then your teammates.
"THIS IS WHERE THE GAME WILL FUCK YOU. If you were wining and the game decides you have a shot at moving up, they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents and stack all odds against you. If you are able to overcome this, you get to move into higher matchmaking."
This is a lie made up by people who want to believe they can't carry because the game stacks all the odds against them and match them with "the noobs"... The guy(s) who designed the MM have already explained and debunked this myth a bunch of times. The game does not force a 50% ratio, does not force you with worse teammates to make things even, and it will not stack the odds against you.
i am not saying it will force a 50% ratio in fact i specificaly assume that even 30% ratio could still match you against high people.
my point is that being a mmr system, and given the number of people you can be matched accureately at any time a fixed number. You will get imperfect matchups that gives you a shit team and the other a team of people equal or better than you. It will happen and you will have to overcome it.
im stuck at 53%, its probably where my skill belongs but this matchmaking system will do it to everyone at some point. The system is actualy very fair but only because its in beta and there are not enough playing the matchups are not quite that reflective. When it is released with a bigger player base i assume it will diminish but not go away.
That's not the only part, you clearly said "they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents", and it just does NOT happen.
thats a way of explaining what happens annecdotally without having to explain what mmr system is and how elos are calculated. im assuming they are using some hidden elo system to calculate ratings.
yes...as you move higher in skill and lets say ur hypothetical mmr goes from 1500 to 1600 by wining a few games whether by ur own skill, good picks, or a pro carrying u and a combination of luck. in the new 1600 game you can still be matched with people in the 1500s and yet because you are now higher to balance this out you will be matched with 1400s on your team. This happens because there are not enough people to match you against all 1600s and with 1600s and still have short que times. Im sure somebody at valve is trying to balance matchmaking fairness and que times as their job. But as it stands this is how it is and we have to deal with it.
yes so the ssystem is trying to fuck you by having no choice but to give you these teams, but on the other hand they are doing it to reduce que times. So take your pick.
bottom line. get very good urself and find some friends who are your skill level.
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."
"That's not the result of matchmaking failing during your "tests"... That's all you thinking that you have a hero you own with, and that you are better then your teammates."
I didn't say it's MM failing, that was your conclusion, I just described what was seeing.
Actually don't know how you were testing MM system, Battou, or how many friends did you usually have while playing (cause this REALLY matters), just try checking games of professional players (let's say players who play in tournaments), make sure to check those games the player played alone, because playing in stack is a really different story. You'll probably notice lots of games where they are losing an amazingly played game just because a teammate fed or made a stupid thing.
To my personal opinion this is OK at current stage, we should take into account that the game is still in betta + so called Action RTS games are relatively new and thus their matchmaking system could not be a perfect one. Also I think it's good to have similar topics in different forums, cause I can't imagine such a matchmaking system in 3-5 years, that would suck.
matchmaking is perfect, u lose some, win some, its not a must that u win all games, i play in at a game cafe, the days which the place would be crowded the ping rises and my skills bcomes bad, mostly at last hitting, then i start losing, so i decided not to complete playing those days, and have enough with 2-3 games, then try my luck the next day..
but i dont remember losing many games bcus i am teamed with noobs, its just rarely, or just my own retarded friends, who dont know that u can deny a doomed ally hero at low hp..
Matchmaking is fine in my opinion but a little skewed when a stack joins a game. They are obviously going to have better communication and most likely have a better chance at winning. If Valve implemented a no-party matchmaking option then matchmaking would be perfect. IMO the only way you lose is if:
1) You are simply being outplayed
2) Your teammates lost their lane hard and proceed to feed the enemy
And if you want to get better I learned that you have to admit that you're bad. Don't think of yourself as some pro that wrecks games. If you lost there's a reason and if you are on a very long losing streak it is probably your fault that you're losing.
Also the team picks sucks. O_o'
You think you can go always carry without stacking teams and hope for good support \ initiators?
You showed enemy and your team avrg WR and I would say that it looks kinda balanced.
Enemy team has less games but better w\l ratio
Your team have more games but worst w\l ratio
does anybody understand how complicated matchmaking would be.. i am a programmer and will tell u some of the challenges involved.
1)Considering 50,000 people playing and an average game lasting around 45 mins, for every 5 mins, you have around 2500 players fitting in the pool ready to join a game.
2)Now of these 2500, you probably would find around 500 or even less fitting the same server profile..
3)Now matchmaking has to find 10 people with similar rating.. this is further complicated by the fact that dota has a very big learning curve and you put people distributed all over a 10 point scale... 0 for noobs and 10 for dendi
4)Wait we have one more problem.. this list of 500 players may not be evenly scattered and all of these 500 might be above 5 with the exception of 10 oddballs who have 2 rating
5)Lets look at another scenario: what if the players are scattered all over the place and it is hard to find players with a similar rating for a match
6)Wait.. there is something called a low priority which should also be considered for this algo..
I hope people understand how complex and difficult is matchmaking
Levels: No. they dont matter at all
Win Rate: No.. it doest decide where u go in matchmaking either
It is more complex and there are a lot of parameters
1) your K/D/A ratio (though this is overrated.. hard supports wont get great kda ratio)
2) the total damage your hero has dished out to heroes and towers
3) the total time you stunned your opponents
4) the total time you disabled(slows and stuff) ur opponents
5) the total heal you have given
6) the amount of damage given out by your amplifies
7) the amount of gold you spent for your team ( courier, wards, things like jango which give ms)
8) other complex parameters
yes.. these are recorded in matches.. look at the console for these...
for example if you play puck.. this is probably how your are judged
damage: spells and attack damage for towers and heroes
stun: the stun after a coil break in addition to hex
disable: the silence and the duration the opponent was in the dream coil
lycan would be judged on his on the damage he deals to heroes and towers(pushing) k/d/a ratio
lion would be judged on his stun and damage
veno on his slow and damage (his performance would also be considered on how much damage his wards did too)
enigma on he pushes (tower damage) and how good his blackholes ( a full 3 man blackhole would give him 15 secs of stun)
venge damage and stun and probably his swap is considered a 2 min stun and his contribution to wards and courier and his damage contribution with his aura and negative armour
and ur k/d/a ratio matters too
these are a lot of factors..and it might not be exactly how it works.. but i hope it gives u the idea and the effort for a proper matchmaking to work
Next time this type of conversation starts off, I'm gonna get popcorn and gonna read like this is Dan brown
because ur ass
nico means fuck u in my language :D
Love reading these threads, they are hilarious.
You haven't played 1 game with me. Btw. BS stats are at 47% in Dota 2. He is not the easiest pubstomper to play, since you have no lanedomination against many heros (qop, nevermore, invoker, huskar and many more). And if you were not such a typical bad mannered dotaplayer you would have read my posts, before you judge. So go check my post with the exact description of my enemy team, and open your mouth again.
Btw Anon, for a Player that have not even reached high matchmaking games you shout out very loud.
I used to pick them often, cause they make you independent. If you check my games, you will find out that i am a quite nice guy, that does not flame (mostly) and always play his role. If i pick a supportive hero, i play full support. And mostly i play support, since support is always missing (nobody likes to play support). My last game i bought chick, chickupgrade and wards with Riki, cause nobody else wanted to do that.
Before you now start flaming on the rikipick: I didnt pick Riki without using my brain. I picked him cause he is a natural diffucarrier and so a natural counter to ursa and sk.
I actually noticed this MM "problem" when dota 2 was just launched and made some testing myself on 4 different accounts. What I've found is:
- If you are a skilled player picking random heroes each time you keep wining/losing about 1 of 2 games and everything goes smooth, if there are nooobs/feeder then they exist in both teams for most of cases.
- However if you are a skilled player picking your "ownage" hero and keep wining 8-10 games with no lose then something really strange starts happening to you. You get noobs/feeders in your team against skilled player stacks. And what's really amazing, if you keep losing next 8-10 games to get back to 50% you don't get back to "normal matchmaking". Simply because your KDA is still good (even though you keep losing) you'll get noobs/feeders again and again.
Probably the best solution (or I would call it some sort of hack) here is gathering a team and playing with stacks on your own. Of course for this case too after some wins in a row you'll play with a pro stack, but at least you'll play nice match and maybe learn something new rather than playing solo and getting annoyed from pointless matches.
BTW Yesterday was watching Dendi's live games, he lost 4 games in a row and in certain places used bad-language/blaming. I totally understand him because his teammates were too far from himself/opposite-team.
This happened to me today I got a 5lose streak cause of the shittiest teammates then cant say miss or understand the word miss...Like today i jungle lifestealer and the Viper nvr said miss once and qop ganked me 4times... it gets irritating and this keeps bringing my win rate down so low
^^ i agree
i love Matchmaking! <3 <3 :):)
I managed to reach 51% win rate and after that MM said: F**** U!, here are some noobs... and it is down to 48% *sigh
yea matcmaking make me horn*
not sure if the people here know this but the game litterally does say fuck you when you are winning more. IT IS INTENTIONAL. The op 9v1 here probably belongs in high, during the time of the original post he was recently tested by the system for very high games,as the system will periodically see if you actually belong in higher matchmaking. im going to assume he was booted down because he cant sustain playing in very high matchmaking and subsiquently went into normal mm. These games in normal are what is giving him the problem.
The way this works is that people either enter at normal or high when they first start the game depending on what they choose in the questionaire at the start. They then play games using a hidden mmr/elo system that tracks their wins against their opponents, its not about how much you win its about who you win against. If you have 33% win rate but only lose to the best people in the server and win all your other games i suspect you will still be in very high. The system will periodically atttempt to match you with higher lvl people to see if you belong in that matchmaking category .
THIS IS WHERE THE GAME WILL FUCK YOU. If you were wining and the game decides you have a shot at moving up, they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents and stack all odds against you. If you are able to overcome this, you get to move into higher matchmaking. Truth is, most people fail to carry a super bad team and they dont move up, those that are stronger move on to very high and stay there. Some people who have a lot of games periodically get an opportunity to go into very high and the system puts them back down after they are found to be not worthy.
350 games, and 90% o my games r in very high bracket (if not playing with my noob m8s)..
after a 10 win streak, i got fu**ed up, playeres against me bcame very very good that i couldnt do anything, i just startedd losing the game one after the other..
Although matchmaking balance ppl's win and lose to 50% but admit it, nobody want much lower skill level player in our team
"- However if you are a skilled player picking your "ownage" hero and keep wining 8-10 games with no lose then something really strange starts happening to you. You get noobs/feeders in your team against skilled player stacks. And what's really amazing, if you keep losing next 8-10 games to get back to 50% you don't get back to "normal matchmaking". Simply because your KDA is still good (even though you keep losing) you'll get noobs/feeders again and again."
That's not the result of matchmaking failing during your "tests"... That's all you thinking that you have a hero you own with, and that you are better then your teammates.
"THIS IS WHERE THE GAME WILL FUCK YOU. If you were wining and the game decides you have a shot at moving up, they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents and stack all odds against you. If you are able to overcome this, you get to move into higher matchmaking."
This is a lie made up by people who want to believe they can't carry because the game stacks all the odds against them and match them with "the noobs"... The guy(s) who designed the MM have already explained and debunked this myth a bunch of times. The game does not force a 50% ratio, does not force you with worse teammates to make things even, and it will not stack the odds against you.
i am not saying it will force a 50% ratio in fact i specificaly assume that even 30% ratio could still match you against high people.
my point is that being a mmr system, and given the number of people you can be matched accureately at any time a fixed number. You will get imperfect matchups that gives you a shit team and the other a team of people equal or better than you. It will happen and you will have to overcome it.
im stuck at 53%, its probably where my skill belongs but this matchmaking system will do it to everyone at some point. The system is actualy very fair but only because its in beta and there are not enough playing the matchups are not quite that reflective. When it is released with a bigger player base i assume it will diminish but not go away.
That's not the only part, you clearly said "they will purposely match you with weaker teammates and simultaneously give you harder opponents", and it just does NOT happen.
thats a way of explaining what happens annecdotally without having to explain what mmr system is and how elos are calculated. im assuming they are using some hidden elo system to calculate ratings.
yes...as you move higher in skill and lets say ur hypothetical mmr goes from 1500 to 1600 by wining a few games whether by ur own skill, good picks, or a pro carrying u and a combination of luck. in the new 1600 game you can still be matched with people in the 1500s and yet because you are now higher to balance this out you will be matched with 1400s on your team. This happens because there are not enough people to match you against all 1600s and with 1600s and still have short que times. Im sure somebody at valve is trying to balance matchmaking fairness and que times as their job. But as it stands this is how it is and we have to deal with it.
yes so the ssystem is trying to fuck you by having no choice but to give you these teams, but on the other hand they are doing it to reduce que times. So take your pick.
bottom line. get very good urself and find some friends who are your skill level.
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."
say hello madcuzbads.
"That's not the result of matchmaking failing during your "tests"... That's all you thinking that you have a hero you own with, and that you are better then your teammates."
I didn't say it's MM failing, that was your conclusion, I just described what was seeing.
Actually don't know how you were testing MM system, Battou, or how many friends did you usually have while playing (cause this REALLY matters), just try checking games of professional players (let's say players who play in tournaments), make sure to check those games the player played alone, because playing in stack is a really different story. You'll probably notice lots of games where they are losing an amazingly played game just because a teammate fed or made a stupid thing.
To my personal opinion this is OK at current stage, we should take into account that the game is still in betta + so called Action RTS games are relatively new and thus their matchmaking system could not be a perfect one. Also I think it's good to have similar topics in different forums, cause I can't imagine such a matchmaking system in 3-5 years, that would suck.
So you called it a problem because it's working perfectly?
matchmaking is perfect, u lose some, win some, its not a must that u win all games, i play in at a game cafe, the days which the place would be crowded the ping rises and my skills bcomes bad, mostly at last hitting, then i start losing, so i decided not to complete playing those days, and have enough with 2-3 games, then try my luck the next day..
but i dont remember losing many games bcus i am teamed with noobs, its just rarely, or just my own retarded friends, who dont know that u can deny a doomed ally hero at low hp..
Hope you've noticed quotes...
I wonder what you call it? A perfectly working matchmaking system blamed by some random stupid guys? :)
Matchmaking is fine in my opinion but a little skewed when a stack joins a game. They are obviously going to have better communication and most likely have a better chance at winning. If Valve implemented a no-party matchmaking option then matchmaking would be perfect. IMO the only way you lose is if:
1) You are simply being outplayed
2) Your teammates lost their lane hard and proceed to feed the enemy
And if you want to get better I learned that you have to admit that you're bad. Don't think of yourself as some pro that wrecks games. If you lost there's a reason and if you are on a very long losing streak it is probably your fault that you're losing.
^ What this guy said
u mad bro?
Also the team picks sucks. O_o'
You think you can go always carry without stacking teams and hope for good support \ initiators?
You showed enemy and your team avrg WR and I would say that it looks kinda balanced.
Enemy team has less games but better w\l ratio
Your team have more games but worst w\l ratio
And that's totally ok Oo
And stack or not stack, DotA 2 got option using mic in-game.
If you are shy or too stupid to say ' ss ' or ' attack now ' on mic, it's ur problem Oo
I think you should post this in Valve dude...
Dotabuff only show your statistic only and can't do anything about the MM...
Chill out dude :D
Obvious troll is obvious, or maybe not? ^^
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
maybe you just suck ? :/
does anybody understand how complicated matchmaking would be.. i am a programmer and will tell u some of the challenges involved.
1)Considering 50,000 people playing and an average game lasting around 45 mins, for every 5 mins, you have around 2500 players fitting in the pool ready to join a game.
2)Now of these 2500, you probably would find around 500 or even less fitting the same server profile..
3)Now matchmaking has to find 10 people with similar rating.. this is further complicated by the fact that dota has a very big learning curve and you put people distributed all over a 10 point scale... 0 for noobs and 10 for dendi
4)Wait we have one more problem.. this list of 500 players may not be evenly scattered and all of these 500 might be above 5 with the exception of 10 oddballs who have 2 rating
5)Lets look at another scenario: what if the players are scattered all over the place and it is hard to find players with a similar rating for a match
6)Wait.. there is something called a low priority which should also be considered for this algo..
I hope people understand how complex and difficult is matchmaking
And as a afterthought on the rating
Levels: No. they dont matter at all
Win Rate: No.. it doest decide where u go in matchmaking either
It is more complex and there are a lot of parameters
1) your K/D/A ratio (though this is overrated.. hard supports wont get great kda ratio)
2) the total damage your hero has dished out to heroes and towers
3) the total time you stunned your opponents
4) the total time you disabled(slows and stuff) ur opponents
5) the total heal you have given
6) the amount of damage given out by your amplifies
7) the amount of gold you spent for your team ( courier, wards, things like jango which give ms)
8) other complex parameters
yes.. these are recorded in matches.. look at the console for these...
for example if you play puck.. this is probably how your are judged
damage: spells and attack damage for towers and heroes
stun: the stun after a coil break in addition to hex
disable: the silence and the duration the opponent was in the dream coil
lycan would be judged on his on the damage he deals to heroes and towers(pushing) k/d/a ratio
lion would be judged on his stun and damage
veno on his slow and damage (his performance would also be considered on how much damage his wards did too)
enigma on he pushes (tower damage) and how good his blackholes ( a full 3 man blackhole would give him 15 secs of stun)
venge damage and stun and probably his swap is considered a 2 min stun and his contribution to wards and courier and his damage contribution with his aura and negative armour
and ur k/d/a ratio matters too
these are a lot of factors..and it might not be exactly how it works.. but i hope it gives u the idea and the effort for a proper matchmaking to work