For guys like u, whose skill is average among all players. The MM is system is Ok. But for players whose level is higher than average there is one big problem. MM system increases the difficulty of ur match by giving u weaker allies and stronger foes. This type of balancing is awful. One player in Dota game can hardly do something, if his team is trash. I face this problem so often: after several wins u will for sure get fucking retards in team for the next several games.
@Spyrith, or maybe you are a noob that doesn't know the difference between legitimate skill differences and what snowballing is?
ofc match maker works fine if you stack every game or can barely play the game since you are playing unconscious over and over so its hard for you to notice how retarded it is
"For guys like u, whose skill is average among all players. The MM is system is Ok. But for players whose level is higher than average there is one big problem. MM system increases the difficulty of ur match by giving u weaker allies and stronger foes. This type of balancing is awful. One player in Dota game can hardly do something, if his team is trash. I face this problem so often: after several wins u will for sure get fucking retards in team for the next several games."
^This, but seams to happen even in the normal bracket
Its fucking awful, if you get a win streak, you get a lose steak because you get shitty allys for the next few games along with a better oposing team(they say they dont force 50% but they feals like the balanceing for it), why dosnt the system just bump your mmr up and give you people of that mmr on both teams, then when you lose it isn't because of of your shitty rush pick 4 carry can't farm team mates and your mmr will actually get balanced correctly.
you get a win steak so your mmr goes up ok, all good, but then the system goes 50% W:L on you lossing streak back to where you where so you end up in this shitty pattern of win because the other team is shitty, then lose because your team is shitty, then once in occasion you will get a good balanced game.
It would work better if you just got matched with 9 other players around your new mmr level(be that higher not lower), and remove anything in they system that stacks a side to force you into a 50% W:L +/- 5 games.
I think that MM is good. I used to get bad players, but I just kept on playing, now I get normal allies 90% of the time when I play solo queue. For me, it really is a proof that if you're really are better than others, you will climb out of a situation like this.
About the 50% w/l thing. Only the very bad and very good players get something lower or higher than this, the system is designed to match people of similiars skill so the chance to win is around 50%. I don't know why people think it determines skill, in the long run it should come close to 50% unless you are that small percentage of people who are very good or very bad.
mm works how it supposed be. the problem is players %99 percent of the player are terrible.
True that a good MM system should have the majority of players around 50% W:L over the last 20 games, but the system feels like it stacks games to force you to it, maybe its fine for some people. atm the MM seams ok for me, just in the good swing of the pattern atm, when I improve some more (which i'm constantly trying to do) I will soon start to have a impact on the games which will cause me to win more then I lose because I will be better then my mmr, so over 30 games I may only lose 10. If at this point the system adjusts correctly and raised my mmr then the other 9 people in my game should be better.
But the game goes f you, you need 50% W:L, gives you the better opponents but lowers the quality of players on your team, and i'm not talking slightly lower, i'm talking way lower(nothing againced these people) and you will have un-winnable games untill you hit that 50% W:L and may even take you 10-15 games bellow W:L.
I'm not saying that the game forces you to 50% W:L, but in my experiences it feels like it does, and dosn't hide the fact that it wants you at that 50%W:L, I wouldn't care the slightest if i had a 30% or a 70% W:L if it meant 4-5 games was a decent game and if you hit 10-15 games off 50% it would just adjust your mmr to suit not pull you back to 50% with 1 sided games
"i guess u guys never played other games with match maker"
sc2's MM for 1v1 up to 4v4 felt good, no complaints with it
SC 2, it's much easier to judge the performance of players from statistics in the game. APM and so on.
Dota 2, too hard, the hero pick factor is too huge that CM games are totally different from pub games.
As for the stomp games list in the beginning, the game is a stomp, because the teams are not balanced !
Yes LGD vs DK they are on the same level, Navi vs Orange, they are on the same level. That Alliance will for sure stomp that team never heard of. LOL
I see ur point with this thread, but.....
My allies have a bad day when they autoattack creeps with support, so i can't lasthit?
My allies have a bad day when me supporting, auto attack without lasthitting?
My allies have a bad day when, they die over and over again, and in 10 minutes they died 10 times?
Im not asking for somewhat decent allies, i just want them not to feed and not being brainless. But that is not the case for me.
So, they aren't having a bad day or a bad game, they are just brainless. And yeah, i do watched a several games of mine, i did a tons of mistake, but when i see what my teammates did, i just facepalm.
...so, what you do is...notice when people do things right, when people are helpful. Pick out players you would want on your team again. Make friends with them. Get a lot of friends. Que with 5.
When you que with 5 and win games and your MMR goes up matching can only adjust by giving you stronger opponents. You will still get near 50% win unless you are good enough (or at least your stack is good enough) that no one in the que can beat you. Matching will try to put the strongest team they can get against you, but if its still too weak then you win more than 50%.
That is what it really means when you see a very strong player like Vaikiss has 57.55% win. It means that about 7.55% of games no one in the que can beat his team and he is given a game that is easy to win because players on his level just are not playing at that moment.
Conversely if someone stays down far below 50%...well it means that sometimes no team in the que is good enough to carry them. :-(
For players with lots of experience this pretty much means that they throw some games...whether by just playing heroes they suck at, or not paying attention (maybe drunk, maybe eating or on the phone), or some people try out stupid builds and lose...one way or another they throw.
Myself, I am terrible at Visage. Currenlty 1 win and 10 losses. I like playing all the heroes, even ones I am bad at playing. But if I'm going to play Visage...I won't be supporting my MMR, although I will try to win....its really not possible for me to play Visage anywhere near the level of my typical game contribution.
When you que with 5 and win games and your MMR goes up matching can only adjust by giving you stronger opponents
yah thats why we have here 90+ winrate smurfs while their main accs got 50%winrate
match maker is 100%garbage
What about smurfs getting high winrates on a few games makes the matching bad? How does that indicate something is wrong with it?
I think if you played in a strong stack and didn't get a much higher winrate than soloing that would indicate a problem. The stack is a much stronger team so it should be winning a lot more. I think this has a really good side effect on the community pressuring people to play together more.
The best way to play the game is with a team of 5 and the matching system encourages everyone to do it. Playing with 5 people and developing some trust and cooperation is not just more likely to win. It's more fun also.
^ What Relentless said about certain heroes messing up your MMR is something I can certainly relate to. Some heroes I play exceptionally well and will stomp with, others I really want to learn but just can't bring myself to playing them in a game because I know I will lose as I am inexperienced with those heroes.
Also, I tend to find, one way or another games are more often than not stomps. 1/10 games are good, 9/10 are unfair either for or against you - but you remember more-so the games against you (and you also look for reasons other than your own game play as to why this is, e.g. my team sucks, MMR is broke etc)
The same is true of pro games, games of dota at any level...The game is intended to snowball. Whoever wins early is supposed to keep winning and expand on that lead. Now some heroes are really good at snowballing and others are really good at stalling or become to much stronger late game that they can recover from a weak start.
But the most basic game mechanics are all geared to reward early success by making it easier to win the next fight. Cool downs times are the only thing that does not encourage snowballing. You win cs and lane control? You have better items, more options, higher dmg, more hp. If you kill enemy heroes you gain an even larger advantage on them while they are penalized in time out of the game and loss of gold. Every win is designed to lead to another win. Every loss is punished to set you up for another loss.
Maybe that is why good players naturally object to the matching system that makes it harder for you when you win and easier when you lose. Its the opposite of what they experience in the game. If the matching worked like the gameplay, every win would stack better players on your team and put worse feeders on the other team. LOL that would really be absurd...the game would quickly become unplayable for everyone.
The matching system just balances the gameplay. It does this whether you play solo or with full teams. I can understand frustration with being placed on a team of bad players sometimes...but its your choice! If you don't have the patience to wait to set up a 5 man team...then this is what is available for instant gratification.
The reason matching can't find 5 players at a very high skill level to play every minute of the day is the same reason you struggle to find them to que with you manually. The reason is good people simply are not there in the que every min of the day. They are a scare resource.
This is the same reason the best players can win 60% +...because often there is no one in the que who can beat them.
Not really, get someone roam and gank the good guy early game on. They will be just as fucked as any bad guy at mid. Of course you risk lose of some other lane resources but definitely worth it.
The thing is early on the game you really don't know who is the good one in their team, and who is the bad one that let him free farm he still do shit. So if they show some recent match stat when the game start will be nice...
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so i see everyone is complaining about MMR, but that gives rise to 2 problems:
1)if everyone complains about MMR then that means that all the complainers are good players, but thats impossible. i doubt most people people that complain about MMR ever bother to watch their replays to see what they could have done to win. i know i do that often and i often find critical moments when I could have done something differently to turn the game and won, or i could have picked a better hero suited for the situation.
Also, most bad players that people complain about, if you search them on dotabuff or search them on their played games in-game, you will see that they had games where they stomped or played their role very well. so in that bad game the player/s you are complaining might just have a bad day, bad game, or are badly outpicked and are locked down from doing their role.
MMR isn't responsible for a players consistency or inconsistency.
2) dota is naturally a stompy game. there is no way around this. Dota is not lilke chess where everything is balanced and one trades a piece for a piece 80% of the time, in Dota good team compositions and strategies will most often stomp bad ones.
here are some examples taken from the pro scene(i just selected the 9 most recent games from dark seer on dota academy to show you this):
http://dota-academy.com/match/4504/ Virtus Pro vs Dignitas=stomp
http://dota-academy.com/match/4502/ Alliance vs 4 Friends=stomp
http://dota-academy.com/match/4510/ LGD vs Ogurayul=stomp
http://dota-academy.com/match/4511/ Ogurayul vs Rattles Gaming=somewhat balanced
http://dota-academy.com/match/4509/ LGD vs DK=balanced
http://dota-academy.com/match/4494/ Ogurayul vs One.Jingi=stomp
http://dota-academy.com/match/4490/ Na'Vi vs Orange=balanced
http://dota-academy.com/match/4489/ Whut vs Rattles Gaming=stomp
http://dota-academy.com/match/4504/ Team Dignitas vs Virtus Pro=stomp
as you can see most of the above games are stomps (score wise), so even on the pro gamer scene most of the games are stomps so i have no ideea why you guys complain so much, the natural order of dota is stomping, not a balanced gameplay