because people think that you're supposed to jungle him from the get-go and end up getting shit like a 12 minute midas and then when they do decide to contribute, the enemy team are too far ahead for the naix to make a game-changing contribution.
saying he "can jungle" depends on your definition of it. rubick "can jungle" on radiant by lifting the hard camp creep near the bottom tier 2 to pull the lane creeps, if you call that jungling, because that's basically as effective as naix in the jungle.
I see two common mistakes when someone picks LS in my team.
> People playing him very aggressive. The fact that he has built-in lifesteal doesn't mean that you can run around diving t2 at 10 mins because you're gonna heal up, he's not bloodseeker.
> People playing him very passive. People get midas and afk farm safelane/jungle even when their team is behind and they need LS to be active early. In this situation you can get Phase + Armlet + Drums and have much more impact.
same also applies to bloodseeker and legion commander, other supposed "junglers" by retard standards.
holy shit ardley you right i might be blind
well andro explained it pretty well.. today i played with a LS who got midas by 15~20 min if im not wrong, still managed to win cuz they were baddies
but he got soloed like 3 or 4 times by chaos knight in the first 8 mins of the game
and another reason is that ppl follow in game suggestions, so they make treads and AoM
another reason is that he is noob friendly, so its more ppl ruining games with the hero etc
He can get kited easily without proper initiation and the nerf to Armlet was huge, caused his fallout in pro too
People jungle, they overextend, they build badly, they don't naix bomb or they don't even pick proper heroes for it. Your average pub trashcan can fuck up even the most OP heroes, so LS is not a problem.
People level 1 jungle, they build a 15 minute midas, they max w first, they build all attack speed items and wonder why they can't deal any damage once the enemy is at 40%, they don't build any mobility items at all other than boots, pubs can't last hit, etc etc etc.
Idk I think he's still a decent hero. He works for me at least. His winrate just gets brought down by people who jungle him.
He received a lot of nerf after ti3, increase rage cd, open wound cast range and increase cd, as well as armlet.
He used to be 1 of the top tier pick/ban in ti3 and top 5 or top 10 in public popularity, but not anymore. He is a good early and mid game carry, but when it comes to late game, he can't have as much impact as other late game hero like am/fv/luna/morph etc.
He can gank frequently in the early game and mid game with his ability, quite a long range of open wound at earlier level, the magic immunity and the infest combo. But after a few patches of nerf, his early game and mid game ganking ability is not that great anymore.
And lastly, he can be kited easily just by picking some heroes like razor/bane/viper/doom.
the good thing about N'aix that most people dont exploit that how early can he come online as a carry. I think at most situations Phase+Armlet(And a drum if the farm is good) - which you can get by 15 min even in hard lane - is by far enough to go wrek the enemy. But most people just stay and farm for late game, where he is raped by any normal AGI carry...
I think main problem is that people in pubs rarely pick "taxi" for Lifestealer (Storm, Nyx or any hero with blink dagger and stun).
P.S. ...or they don't know how to use this combo.
he's pretty borin
but on topic, i see too many tards in my bracket when it comes to using naix's infest properly
yeah, naix bomb is great, but sometimes you gotta wait the counter out so you can double infest if need be, and for some reason,
most ppl end up infesting ally creeps even though A. enemies can kill them and B. you gain ZILCH hp
just one of those things that seems so simple and shouldn't happen that often but does...
he's just another one of those heroes that needs to get the initiation i suppose
I think going midas period is the problem. Seems like every lifestealer builds it when why? He doesn't really need the levels, he needs gold, he needs armlet, boots, and then a big item like ac or something to be effective. He's not really an afk farming hero like void or anti mage yet he needs some farm before he's real effective so he's a tweener that way and most players can't handle tweeners like that. I also hate, just hate mjollnir on him but a lot of people build it. It doesn't make you any tankier or help your move speed, two things naix needs a lot. Just go ac.
I don't think jungle is the issue. He jungles as well as ursa or lycan or doom, yet you don't hear people bitch about those guys jungling.
Actually I complain frequently when Lycan/Doom only jungle. Especially Lycan. There's better farm in the lane and 4 core is not a thing.
And another reason AC is so good on LS is that it lowers enemy armor making that W even better.
Because you actually need competent people on your team
Seriously people is saying that you must rush a blink dagger and i agree with this, but you know what is really not fun ? rushing a blink and depending on your team to kill someone ( because lets be honest you aint killing shit alone with a blink and treads )
I dont think jungle is the issue here
Dorkly we are talking about LS, not LC. And the main problem about him is most people don't know his powers. He is great in late game, but not comparable to someone like Void. But they never join their Puck to gank that pesky Void. They just want to farm more and more. And then "Why did we lose?".
@Sam I agree, get armlet and boots by ~12 minutes and push towers. He is crazy strong at that lvl. Also don't even pick him vs heroes like void. He doesn't counter them in any way. I usually pick him vs str heroes cus he melts them like vs pudge, axe, centuar, or vs immobile magic users like lion, jakiro, cus you just rage through their cc. Void will just backtrack all his attacks and ult goes through magic immune.
Because most players see him as a late game carry, but he's one of the strongest early-mid carries with just phase,drum/sny and armley he can rape. But people tend to stay and afk farm him untill minute 40, then an equally farmed void(or any real hard carry) kills their entire team late game.
If people were more agressive with him, the winrate would go up.
There's only like 3 builds with him that I've seen done in pubs. The Armlet treads build or the midas/damage and race car build. Problem is so many heroes can kite him like ds, wr any stunner. His Open wounds is nerfed next to SHIT. I mean you MUST have level 4 open wounds just to kill. Forcing people to do race car builds or else watch support heroes run away with phase boots. So with max open wounds build he becomes viable after level 7 or 8 with other build he's not viable to 10 or 11. As tanky as he is, he is very sceptable to stuns after he rages. So that's the BIGGEST downside. He only has 6 seconds at max level. So again reminds us of him having only level 1 or 2 ranks on rage before level 11. So 3-4 seconds rage is nothing at most 6 hits at max attack speed, so if he's chasing that's less.
Finally he sucks in 5v5. He's no SF or Sven where he can clear teams. ENemy team just need something to tank naix that 6 second he's raged then after that they blink in epicenter or echo slam. Best hero to bait him is brewmaster.
He loses out to late game drow and weaver or any hero that builds daedalus and is stealth unless the team carries a gem. His main thing now is infest bombs. Usually 2v1 or 2v2. Any given 3v3 encounter there's to much disruption, stuns or spells that will kite Lifestealer.
Finally he loses out to even melee heroes with basher or late game carries such as WK, Ursa and AM if he doesn't have abyssal blade.
You can jungle with naix and be full life at mn 6 lvl 6, full mana, midas mn 8-9 or before. Using only two tango. I'm not sure how you can say ls is a bad jungler.
he's not a bad jungler, people just consider jungling "mainly bad"
it's only bad when you have weak/late game/greedy fuckers drafting 3-4 cores on one team.
in lane midas can be gotten by 5ish, armlet doesn't really have to be core on every single game... lots of AA's poppin up
> HP heavy targets i.e. pudge AKA the portable naix fountain
> slow/no-escape targets
> decent counter to disables that have slow projectile speed
< Carries with more AS i.e. alch/troll
< Heroes that have spells that do not get effected by wounds i.e. seer/lycan
< Forcestaffs
You can do better than that. It's possible to get a midas at 7-7:30 and stay near full hp all the time past level six. He just doesn't offer you anything. It's not like an enigma jungle where he can push towers and tp support to ult tower divers. It's certainly not like an enchantress jungle where she can roll into lane and murder you, or harass their mid out of lane for free. You're basically a walking open wounds, and a difficult to land one until you get phase.
Exacerbating the issue of being a jungler with no contribution, he also has no wave clearing. When your lanes inevitably fail, you can't slow their push like you can with lc nuke or fade bolt.
He seems really gravy in lane though, and that's usually where i see him played anyway
I dont understand how people can jungle lifestealer so badly they could end up with a 15 minute midas? I mean, I no longer go for a midas, but by 15 minutes, I tend to have treads and an armlet? And am part way through a maelstrom.
He peaks mid game, in relation to other carries, so thats what you need to build for, by 30 minutes, I tend to have treads, armlet, maelstrom, and have significant progress made towards my heart, having played in a while, but think 30 minutes tends to be the heart?
Having said that, I've watched people stay in jungle with him for 20-25 minutes, which is kinda bizaare? He's not a teamfight or late game hero, he is more ganking. It is so much fun to infest someone, and bait out a pudge hook.
But yeah, if you leave jungle at 10-14 minutes with you armlet and treads, and go for a few naix bombs, and take a tower, he's really good, especially against any strength hero. (Rage, and armlet basically melts towers. Its quite underrated.)
Jungle LS can work. I've played it a few times recently in AR games (I still greatly prefer laning him). You have to be good about ganking the safelane though. Usually you can get easy kills there by popping out of the jungle and using open wounds on an enemy as long as the other two people in the safelane have some sort of a stun or slow too. Unfortunately most people afk farm on him and that's definitely not the way to play Jungle LS.
Ganked Riki's lane 2 or 3 times and got him a Killing Spree before he even hit 6 iirc: http://dotabuff.com/matches/684408402
Ganked safe lane multiple times. We had tons of lockdown even without me so I just just extra autoattacks for the most part: http://dotabuff.com/matches/685974600
Most of my lifestealer games just seem to be really poor luck lately, last two picks on one game were a lycan and naga, lycan never roshed. Many games I have lc's on my team who feed duels. Not always trying to blame everyone else buy lifestealer needs a lot of backup in a team fight, unlike some other carrys.
i have played LS quite often recently and have tried out some other kinds of builds on him. but guys, in your opinion, when to build which? i mean when to go maelstrom first, when go AC, when go SnY and when to rush abyssal?
and i think LS is not a ideal jungler. the fact that he can jungle doesn't mean that u must send him to to jungle.he is great on lanes and i think only scrubs still keep thinking of a jungling LS.
jungle is for chen, NP, enchant, enigma blah blah but not LS.
Well your item build depends a lot on your team and the enemy's team. If you have a lot of disables on your team you probably don't need S&Y for movement and slow, though you could still get it for stats. If they have a lot of right click a halberd can be quite good. If your team has multiple right clickers then Ac obviously, if their team has a lot of physical dps then Ac armor helps a ton. I don't think I would ever rush abysal, closest would be boots, armlet, hyperstone, basher then finish either mjollnir or Ac then finish abyssal. A lot of LS's dmg comes from feast so IAS is better than raw damage early, letting you survive and deal dmg. For example even on someone dying with only 500 hp left max feast does 35 dmg.
And another thing that bugs me when people say never jungle naix is same argument as when they say to lane doom. Often if you are safe lane the opposing team will try and put some really nasty heroes off lane like axe and ogre magi or some bullcrap, unless you have a really good support you won't get free farm vs that. Yeah it's easy to free farm in the old trilane meta where you deal with a single offlane weaver or mirana but no one does that anymore. Thus my jungle farm is usually superior to my lane farm because supports don't do a good job creating space. The downside is jungling one of your lanes is solo and at risk and that's a big risk they'll feed or the enemy will get free farm. That's the tradeoff, not loss of your own farm.
@Mark yea i have never ever rush abyssal but i sometime choose basher as my first item after the cores ( armlet, phase ). and can u please give me 1 replay where u can farm fast in the jungle.i suck on jungling and i think many many ppl suck as well.
tks a lot
There is only 1 reason, people play him as a fucking retard. They buy a midas, then early game items, and AFK the whole time jungle, after its 40min into the game they come out of the jungle and are trying to hit a 6 slotted Alchemist with S & y + drums.
I'll have to play a game in jungle later, I've been laning with him recently. Don't get me wrong, lane is ideal if you have the support for it, and do not have a good offlane, and last few games I have had support and no offlane.
just 2 supports getting force staff and naix won't get kills. Sure he's good for push lineups and mass disables but if both teams are equal in terms of stun and cc. Naix won't get kills unless he actively infest puck or storm spirit. Or some sort of inititation like mirana's ult. Also he requires BKB just so he wont' die if the enemy carry is equally farmed, such as sven or tiny just so he can survive with magic immunity after rage wears out.
In 3k pubs we call him 'zeo kill naix' cuz that's what he gets being 4th or 5th pick.
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Seems to me like a great pub carry. Can lane safe or jungle, damaging at all stages of the game, and very survivable with free 6s bkb. Yet he has an abysmal 46% winrate.