PA - Decent as 3rd item but not rushed.
Ember - Cleave and Crit = win game
Antimage - needs it to flash farm
Jugger - The aghanims build isn't always the best, sometimes getting the BF will help you farm/scale into a carry that can match others without the omnislash, but remains optional.
Void - again optional
Kunkka - Go watch !Attackers videos you will understand how it works. (e.g. cleave stacking)
Bounty Hunter - Useless item, never buy
Magnus - Same thing as kunkka, Empower + RP + BF + MoM = 5 man wipe
Tusk - Optional, not really that good
Sven - I have seen it work but can't say
Never go BF first on PA, she has an amazing early game. Go treads, and helm and then maybe look into investing in a BF depending on how the game is going, otherwise go BKB.
Bounty Hunter needs mana regen, if not Battle Fury then what?
BTW sometimes Battle Fury is worth picking vs heroes like Chaos Knight.
you can get bottle on bh, since 2 runes every 2 minutes you have infinite mana.
no need to buy 4k gold item for mana on bh :)))).
if your team relies on bounty hunter to clear the illusions, then you are doing something wrong.
void stone alone costs more than a bottle.
i mean ofc in offlane you can always farm 10 min bfs and rekt 5 people in 1 cleave.
or you can just get medallion/basi/soul ring..
also I disagree you should /never/ buy battlefury on BH... Maybe as a 6th item when maxed just for cleave crits when your team is useless, but that depends on the game.
I don't want to be rude too, but I think that even most absurd itembuild is legit for as long as you can win with it.
BH can go bottle, vlads, urn, orchid, even casual basilius. Picking up 4k+ item for mana regen seems rather strange.
Again I get that BF is very good vs illusions (and summons). But on someone like BH it is not gonna make a differense.
Regarding Omnislash:
For example
Sleight of Fist - Any attack modifier that Xin has (such as Critical Strike, Bash, Cleave, or Orb effects) will be applied normally on these attacks.
Omnislash - Not any mention about similar effect.
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I understand BF will only proc if you can hit before slashes.
> PA - Decent as 3rd item but not rushed.
Totaly agree.
> Kunkka - Go watch !Attackers videos you will understand how it works. (e.g. cleave stacking)
> Magnus - Same thing as kunkka, Empower + RP + BF + MoM = 5 man wipe
Can't watch video right now, but I have seen players like SingSing doing it BF on Kunkka, and in lategame they chage it to another daedalus or rapier anyway. So why not wait for another 1k gold and buy a daedalus instead?
I feel that on Magnus, refresher, or daedalus, or AC will give you the same 5 man wipe, but are more usefull in other situations. And empowering your carry is more important than yourself. If you going carry magnus I guess...
actually bf on jugger is super good makes you farm super fast and then you can go hitting shit and raping with some attack speed and basher... i just still havent found the timings and exact build progression to make it work without fail :B
> Juggernaut can perform his normal autoattacks during Omnislash.
Only if he has stacked a lot of attack speed, no?
My point about jugg is that he need attackspeed, Mjolnir gives farming abilities AND attackspeed. Also building Maelstorm is easier.
I am not saying BF is bad on him, just don't see serious advantages over Mjolnir.
On pa its decent , i dont like it cuz tbh she is not am its decent but not good
Am its a must
Ember too
jugger its a waste imo but situational
Void ^ read jugger
Kunkka its fun but wont do it if im playing to win
Bh and tusk only tards get it ...
Magnus , magnus is not really a carry ppl dont understand this he is an intiator with a great buff to ur carry
sven , extremly waste
Thats my opinion about it
@Slave
No, he autoattacks all the time, without any pre-requests for the attack speed. It only affects the amount of autoattacks during Omnislash.
But I also don't get the idea of building BF on Jugg, when you are better off with Maelstrom > Mjolnir. Getting IAS on an Agi hero with 1.4 BAT is a good idea, Omnislash or not.
Well I think you're half right. In general it's sad to see void's or juggers going battlefury but it works in some cases. Problem is jug needs stats, his hp and mana pools are abysmal early, and while battlefury helps with his regen, he doesn't even have enough mana in his pool to do a blade fury and his ult at level 6, it's retarded. That's a big reason people will often put points in stats early on him or go aghs first or go drums.
Void's it just delays his team fight so much and it doesn't fit current meta. Otherwise I think it's a great item.
PA it's still a good item after a couple early game items like treads/phase, maybe basher, drums or helm. It sort of depends on enemy team makeup but hitting those big crits with cleave in the middle of a melee team is like having a less reliable sven around. Sven can wipe teams that bunch up with his ult, PA is similar if she gets battlefury.
@havoc, dude, if you are going to be buying BF on PA, it should be ASAP
As for the rest of the discussion, I think the problem is that people that build the item in the lower brackets are (a) building it when its inappropriate and (b) not using the item effectively. It is an item that significantly boosts your farm, if you choose to do so..so many times I've seen people pick the item up and start trying to fight..like seriously? Sure you get decent damage from it, but its main benefit is that your following items come much quicker.
As for Juggernaut, I'm torn. You can farm just as quickly without battlefury, maelstrom + yasha is a little more expensive but you are getting a lot more DPS + handy movement speed, I would argue that you are farming at almost the same rate, with the exception of clearing stacks. Even with that in mind, its hard to look past the passive HP/mana regen from battlefury, especially on a hero with such a tiny INT pool and extremely expensive spells. Casting a level 2 or 3 ulti and one or two more spells is going to leave you dry. On one hand you could return to the fountain, with battlefury you can passively regen up. My personal preference is to only go cleave against illusion based heroes and brood, but otherwise go for mael + yasha, maybe picking up dagger between them if I want.
yes battlefury can be an awful item and its one of the worst used items in lower brackets, same could be said for all the dumb asses buying MoM on any hero when they are wayyy behind and dropping like flies already. The amount of spirit breakers that I have seen that are getting destroyed that still buy the item, its just unbelievable. Its not a problem with the items, its the players.
you can ofc farm as quickly with maelstrom but you wont be rdy to fight or with mana and aquilla isnt enough
> No, he autoattacks all the time, without any pre-requests for the attack speed. It only affects the amount of autoattacks during Omnislash.
Jumps itself are not autoattacks because thay have fixed dmg, and do not proc orbs.
Wiki says that "Jumps happen in 0.4 second intervals", so he need to get his attack in that interval. Even 25 lvl jugg (without items) have 1.48 attack per second. That makes ~0.6 per jump. Seems like you need more attack speed to perform that hit.
Or maybe I am completely wrong in my perception of his ulti...
Check this out for details on omni lash. You have to be able to attack at specific intervals so it's not like 50 IAS increase your attacks, it's like 60 gives you one extra, then 80 does nothing, then 120 gives you two extra.
http://2p.com/7366853_1/Optimizing-Omnislash-Juggernaut-in-681b-by-thunderfunking.htm
Whenever i see bh with bf, i leave. Tottaly crap on him, it is like buying cm a divine
I understand mana jugg issues, but you are not alone in this game. It is real shame when team does not have few arcane boots or someone like CM or KotL.
@Slave
I said "autoattacks", what do you not understand? His autoattacks during ulti are independent of jumps.
Does wraith kng get a mention in a bf thread ? He has a sound clip when he buys one, that must mean . . Something?
@Terrible
I get what you are saying, my point is that most of this heroes do not need to engage in farm wars (which they propably going to lose anyway).
BH, Tusk - gankers.
Magnus, Kunkka, Sven - already have cleave.
Jugg, Void - better work with mjolnir.
PA - extremly effective in early-midgame and doesn't need that much to start killing people. Contary she NEED to fight early to get most from the blur before enemy carry finishes his mkb. Someone earlier said that BF PA is like less reliable Sven, but he has aoe disable, and she has one-target slow. And if PA is hitting people usually try to run from her, or disable her. I do get the satisfaction of crit-cleave killing half of enemy team though.
> I said "autoattacks", what do you not understand? His autoattacks during ulti are independent of jumps.
Yeah, sorry I was under the impression that every jump restarts attack animation. I get it now.
> Does wraith kng get a mention in a bf thread ? He has a sound clip when he buys one, that must mean . . Something?
I was using "Most Used by Heroes This Month" stat as a base for this list. By the way every hero (from that list) has more than 50% winrate with BF... exept Antimage )
Regarding WK, Mjolnir is a more convinient choice for strengh heroes. They usually need that attackspeed badly...
I agree its silly on BH and Tuskar. On Magnus its not awful but there are better items, Refresher is the obvious choice but if you need damage, I don't see why you wouldn't just get crit. Sven doesn't and shouldn't be buying it, maybe against PL or something I'm not sure, but crits would be a lot better I would think. Kunkka actually does benefit a lot more from battlefury than you might think.
Its not so clear cut for Juggernaut because of his mana issues which is a big deal. Void can just go mom + maelstrom now so yeah, I agree that battlefury isn't a necessity on him at the moment.
With PA, again its all about choice. There are games where you will want to be a lot more active early, where you might be building drums/bkb + hotd/abyssal or whatever. But there might be games where that isn't possible, and you do want to farm more, in which case battlefury is a good choice. "before enemy finishes MKB" - you might want to think that through..it takes a long time before anyone can really build this item, most heroes will be building 2 items before they go for MKB, and even then its not the end of the world.
as for sven vs pa..well that is just silly, PA's mobility in fights is fantastic, and when she has abyssal/bkb up its just nasty, not to mention even without those items she has the potential to very quickly kill almost any hero. battlefury is almost entirely irrelevant in team fights (with obvious exceptions..), its what it does outside of team fights, where you are building items faster and faster. Think about an AM without battlefury that went vlads/manta/whatever, the one that went with battlefury first is picking up those other items a lot quicker.
The best Bounty Hunter item is Dagon. Sorry m8, it just is. I'd rather get Orchid than Battlefury on him, at least then I can assassinate solo guys without all their annoying escape abilities and stuns, and contribute an extra silence to teamfights.
I think best bh item is deso. Combined with jinada and how it applies the debuff before your attack lands it adds a ton of burst dmg.
And jug is not just about mana regen, it's about his mana pool. He doesn't even have enough mana in his pool at level 6 to do his ult and a blade fury, it sucks. That's why drum or point booster first are so strong on him.
Desolator is a perfectly reasonable BH item depending on what you are trying to accomplish, I just think Dagon gives you cheaper/earlier burst but more importantly 'safer' burst, as in you are capable of interacting with the enemy team at range, which is very valuable in teamfight situations.
Desolator gives you better sustained damage but against vaguely competent players it's hard to sustain DPS with BH anyway, you want to be all-in on punching them out at once if at all possible.
I've seen battlefury once on wk and thought it was kind of dumb. Just cus wk should be fighting early and getting a blink/bkb/armlet is much more crucial than a battlefury and farming. Deso is better for fighting on him too.
What about troll warlord though? I have never considered it but think about it, troll doesn't need attack speed really, with the regen you can now skip aquila (though aquila has nice other stats). Maybe you go phase boots, drums, battlefury? Though he already has nice weave clear/farming with his whirling axes, maybe it's not a good idea.
Troll is similiar to wk where he needs to fight early. But he definitely can go late, but I still believe that you're better off going for early game items like Drums, Phase and Hotd, then for some bigger items like BKB and MKB.
As for PA, you definitely do not need to rush it. It's a very good item later in the game if ur going up against illusions.
BH BF is the best OMG NUBES. U track everyone then crit cleave everyone then toss the sherken ezy RAMPAGE.
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I recently grow to despise this item...
Disclaimer: my mmr is pretty low (around 3k), so feel free to dismiss my noobish opinion.
It is not that I think Battle Fury is bad item by any means, I just don’t get why people build it on some heroes. So let’s look at popular Battle Fury wielders, should we?
PA - Nice starting item if you want to concentrate on farm afterwards and able to get it early. Shitty if you are behind. I just have an impression that PA is a good hero even if she does not have extensive farm. Dominator, BKB, basher and go fight, crit, destroy faces, while enemy still haven't gotten their MKB-s. She is not Antimage by any means.
Ember Spirit - definitely core.
Anti-Mage - same.
Juggernaut - why? It does not work during omnislash, kind of works during bladefury (but who cares). If you want aoe dmg you can take Mjolnir which additionally gives you attackspeed (which is good because with enough attackspeed your attack will proc during omnislash) and amazing active. So why BF?
Faceless Void - I get the idea, but same issue here, Mjolnir is just better because you need attackspeed for bash procs. And if enemy team have working brains it will be very hard to catch more than 2 people into crono, and even then they most likely will not be close enough to each other.
Kunkka - I have seen many pro players building it, but still don't get it. Kunkka already has amazing cleave with crazy aoe, so why do you need another, weaker, smaller cleave? You will try to hit them from far away trough creeps anyway... And for like 1k more gold you can get daedalus which is a lot more helpful.
Bounty Hunter - this is the hero that inspired me to post this. WHY THE FUCK DO U NEED BF ON BH ?! BH is not farming hero (tracks), not teamfight hero (too squishy), he is primary ganking hero, so he should prey on LONE targets, and cleave has no meaning. Deso have the same cost, similar attack bonus and huge armor reduction so why BF?
Magnus - He has his buff. Cast it on yourself, and build literary anything else and it will be more usefull
Tusk - same as BH. Ganking oriented, lone targets, people tend to run from snowball, more useful items (blink, deso, shadow blade) for same money or less.
Sven - haha you now have 100% cleave, because 65% certainly wasn't enough. Good job well played.
P.S.: Most item choices are situational, and I get it. If you need a lot of aoe (illusion based enemies), or have reliable teammates who can disrupt enemy positioning (DarkSeer, Magnus), or executing some splitpush strategies, or farming hard, BF is a reliable choice for the most melee heroes (But some benefit from Mjolnir more). I am just so tired of PA building BF first and then sucking for 20 minutes because each hero of enemy team has disable, and she has no BKB...