Wow you kidding me so much win rate in ranked. Seems to actually work I might try this btw best Jugg seen so far
the dude gets 1 point crit and 1 point healing ward half of his games and then maxes stats.
a bit extreme...
I'm not sure how to quote on here... lol but anyways.
@Kael
yea its great... Obviously diffusal is there for a reason though which some say 2k players might not understand (not saying you are) So I wouldn't suggest changing the build up too much... Maybe if its ultra lategame and you need an MKB/BKB//BF/Satanic.
@Concede
Yea you'd think that... but you really don't need it tbh! Obviously if you're against a necro offlane with a windrunner or something really crazy like that youre going to need 2 or 3 points in healing ward. I normally get around 2.
Bladefury is only skilled if its a MUST really... some games i don't even get it. But overall getting so many stats on Jug really works wonders. I was sceptical myself.
well your record shows you only get 2-3 points into stats before going abck to ward/crit and you get 1 point of Q if you need it.
That guys you posted is just stats... like he goes 1 point crit and 1 healing ward and then 7 points into stats and ulti.
what makes you decide on crit vs stats. before level 11?
@hael 2.0 - have original thoughts and I wouldn't call you on shitposting.
yeah it is, when trash like you from normal skill thinkk they have a win win noob formula for ez mmr. go hide in you cave pls and dont come out
@concede
I've had one or two games where I've literally went stats>crit>ward>stats>stats>ultimate>Stats>stats> (so on...) But You're right I don't do it as much as him.
Tbh i party with 4k+ Players but I normally end up laning with a friend who is around 2.4k So i like getting more points in heal kinda for him more than anything (lol getting half hp'ed to creep agro while trying to harass and such lmao)
I've noticed though i like getting slightly more points in crit than the builds OP.
@Benao I didn't claim to be a highskill 5k+ player? The builds OP has gained around 1800+ MMR using said build... I'm just sharing.
Not sure if you have a problem with people spamming one hero to climb but going from practically 4K to 6K he has to be doing something right.
LESS SALT PLEASE.
@Nextstep
Stout>Qblade>slippers (no regen keep a skill point until you see the lane) > Poormans>Ring of aquila> Treads> S&Y>Shadowblade>Diffusal>skadi >so on.
Also at around 12-14min in if you have S&Y with a smoke you can solo rosh with 2 points in healing ward and never really get low and put into a dangerous position.
"@Benao I didn't claim to be a highskill 5k+ player? The builds OP has gained around 1800+ MMR using said build... I'm just sharing."
he was speaking to kael, not you
stats are fine.. check my latest jugg games
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/185476667/matches?date=&faction=&hero=juggernaut&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
(especially last ranked game:D:D)
Ah I i see you're part of the MoM builder group ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Haha :P Ive fancied trying it.. Id imagine the lifesteal and catch is nice... Obvious drawbacks is the fact you drop like a fly in some cases.
mom is like a better midas for jugg considering his buff to crit and his amazing animation. its more of a farming tool, rather than fighting. its good for fighting too if u have stuns and shit in ur team
Hmm i might try fitting it in somewhere if I'm having a good game (i think id probably sell it towards the lategame.. but as you say as a farming tool i guess it'd be nice.
I've looked at a few games. The skill build looks retarded. He prefers 2 stats points over 2 Blade Fury, and he misses some kills early game because of that. Later game Blade Fury is not that useful so he manages to recover.
I want some pie now :(
^yea with some lineups obviously you could potentially get first bloods with bladefury plus the fact you can dodge stuns etc... its a valid point one of my friends keep bringing up on me everytime i run into such a situation.
It just works but i dunno it just works tbh. I basically just skill it if they have a silence/ravage/stun lineup really.
I have a strong feeling you're building diffusal blade just because it worked a couple times and you think its the item that owes to the success. Do you have a legitamate reason you build diffusal blade.
Take a look at the replays of 'matrice' and how he plays jugg. It's very legit. I studied a few replays and applied them to my games. Take note: I am not a carry player, but I have had great success with his build. \
I don't understand the point of taking stats over crit though. Taking crit allows you to farm quicker and has amazing dps. Your healing wards in fights usually doesn't get killed anyway if micro-ed very well so tankiness shouldn't be an issue.
Also, mom is a great farming tool and increases your dps significantly. What I do is I only try to take a kill/fight when my ultimate is up (either that or I would try to farm aggressively in their jungle). Also as a carry, I don't think you're supposed to be there at the start of the fight anyway. So the enemy team most likely lacks the damage to finish you off even with mom.
Another note: I take 1 point in blade fury if I see that I need magic immunity. I don't take it for the damage because I rely on my right clicks for that. I usually max it last.
@Pilot - Check your numbers, additional points in crit (past the first) results in almost identical DPS to taking stats, the difference is that stats is increasing your HP and mana pool by a bit too. Not saying to leave crit till the end of the game, but going 1-1-1 and then taking stats is the way to go.
And yeah, diffusal is definitely a decent purchase for the aforementioned reasons, the slow is also really nice and works well with manta. You know I'll be honest, his illusions even without getting +agi items seem to do a fair amount of damage
@benao the reason I was asking was that in very few of his games do people actually get ghost sceptres and the majority of them are supports who probably picked the items up at around 30-40 mins so why would getting a 20-25 minute diffusal effect this. I am genuinely wondering if he had some plan or is just building it cause stats or a purge in which cause why not select at least 5 other items that could do something similar more effectively.
Much like the slark shadow blade discussion I think the success with jugger is primarily due to sneak attacks with 175 back stab into ult which should kill off most people who are not either close to creep waves or other heroes.
Looking through item builds http://www.dotabuff.com/players/82931500/items?date=&faction=&hero=juggernaut&lobby_type=&game_mode=&duration=&metric=used it would seem the assumption is correct and the success comes from the stat gain, and maim from SnY coupled with shadow blade (30 games) which he then added a diffusal too despite perhaps not needing it (20 games).
If he wants to, I would suggest playing a game with Orchid, Mjollnir, or Butterfly to replace the diffusal and even skadi or an early orb if you like the slow, and see if that changes/doesn't change your jugger win rate.
To reinstate, I think the success comes from the Shadowblade with stat gain SnY rather than a diffusal which should be left to situational pending ghost sceptres or a manta purchase.
EDIT: Look at the Skadi winrate, overall try using that as your 3-4th items choice if you haven't ended by then.
the thing is this guy is stupid. he thinks he's winning cause of his build. He's clearly not, obviously its because jugger right now is op and no matter what you do, you should win.
^ i played with that friend of yours before and he hated and flamed me because i was bad at earthshaker ;_;
Eh, the build isn't that amazing. I never understood why people got stats early on juggernaut, it doesn't make that much of a difference in my opinion.
Anyways, the build is okay at best. I like to go phase -> yasha -> diffusal -> skadi -> manta -> whatever the fuck I need.
@Havoc badger its one of the most cost effective agi items in the game.
You can remove debuffs.dust.ghost scepter.
Jug needs some form of catch so its also great for that.
Also the mana burn is nice.
Is my opinion on building it wrong or?
+2 stats is something alot of old jugg players use, because it enables you to omni+spin at lvl 6
also, jugg is very squishy if u don't play his right, so stats do make the differences. kinda like burning's am
havoc badger, please top talking..the only time you come off as somebody who understands the game is when you literally copy paste what someone else has said. Stick to that please. diffusal is a good item on him, but it is rarely necessary, suggesting orchid over it is just crazy, you can farm up basher/abyssal very quickly at the moment anyway.
While Shadow Blade isn't a bad item, Dagger is probably better. One thing you may notice is how far backs teams will stay once you are ahead with juggernaut, with dagger you can pretty much just blink on peeps from out of town, ulti and either walk out or spin + tp out. It is really effective if you have wards up. I mean if you are trying to rax, you can blink onto the tower or behind the tower if someone is there, kill them with your ulti, spin and TP to the next creep wave and heal up with ward. Its pretty stupid but it works.
There really isn't anything special about this build. Is it optimal? Meh, who really knows, I don't think that it is, but jugg is that strong at the moment + plenty of item choices that while different, mostly accomplish very similar things
edit: as for the stats build? You need to think about it. The only benefit from skilling your Q is the CD reduction really..W? You just don't need more than 1 point in it for a very long time. As I said earlier, the DPS from additional points into your crit is about the same as getting stats, so if you take stats instead of crit (past 1 point), you hit just as hard but you have a little extra HP + Mana which can be pretty nice.
@Timberwolf.. I play safe. IF i have no greedy jungler and my lane has gone to shit (basically a viper etc and i cant heal through it and sustain my lane presance) I'll go jungle. I tried one game where i went jungle only and i ended up 6 at 6min and the game ended up with me getting a 800+GPM.
@+25 I never said diffusal was a bad item on him I was wondering what your thinking was behind it. Obviously he is a strong hero and as long as you're not going to far out on a limb its not to hard to win with him. In your last 15 matches only one game had a ghost sceptre which he turned into an eblade which he probably wouldn't be wasting on himself. You've done nothing wrong and again to reinstate, it's not a bad item at all but should remain (IMO) situational in favor of other items.
- I see the last three games you did extremely well without the aid of the diffusal.
As for the blink vs shadow blade, players have been arguing this for ages and there is no better or worse. Everyone has their preference and everyone makes it work for them. I can see either or both working just as well each other and if shadow blade is working for you then use it but be open to swapping one for the other if the game calls for it.
@Terrible Did an interesting topic with good information that hurt the general flow of garbage upset you somehow?
havoc thats only cos hes playing in thrash tier, every support / certain cores consider ghost/eul against jugg and pre-emptive diffusals are fine you dont want to lose a teamfight cos of a surprise ghost/eul pickup
That's true and is well known, I was wondering if he just built it because of if he had actually thought it through.
Edit: That being said being in such a low tier, not many people will grab a ghost beyond the occasional support which shouldn't even be a massive point of focus unless they're an initiator with a ghost.
Even a surprise ghost shouldn't phase you much and one wasted ult which prompts 5-7 minutes of farming or killing to get the item isn't a massive deal. Anyways mostly thinking out load but yes, it can and is to some extent a decent item.
Talk about ursa? He's so shitty right now, at least for me, kite kite kite kite, disable, kite kite kite. Pick him, enemy team goes puck, ogre, PA, NP, clock. So cog traps, PA dodges, tree traps, puck just impossible to kill with shift, teleport, blink and ult, ogre crushed you with bkb down. Sucks cus you end up needed 3 core items vs this team, a mkb, bkb and blink before you can do anything and your toast as soon as bkb is down.
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Never posted on here so sorry for such a shit level post which practically makes it look like im bragging about all my wins. Anyways one of the top jug players (I think hes around 68th) has a rather odd in my opinion build on jug.
Here's his recent jug games.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/111757879/matches?date=&faction=&hero=juggernaut&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
I decided to give 7 or 8 of his replays a watch (yes I'm that dedicated lmfao) After some thought i tested it and literally every game (solo and party.. sometimes partying against 4.8k party.I'm close to 4k) Has been REALLY EASY. Averaging 600-800 GPM every game.
Here's my results with this build so far (around 78% Winrate but the first 2-3 losses we're me getting used to the build)
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/82931500/matches?date=week&faction=&hero=juggernaut&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=