General DiscussionVery high skill games, flame and abusing reporting

welcome to flamezone

0_o Dadelus doesn't stack with crit passives.It just add another chance of getting either coupa de grace or dadelus crit meaning more crit but not as strong.Is this a smurf?

play RMM instead of NMM, its way better although still far from ideal

I know it is not a 100% stack. Still a good choice for several reasons. Not going to discuss it here.

you can skip the discussion, but overall your itembuild is just very, very bad.

Im not lvl 13 on this account. Right now Im experimenting with how I can reach high hidden MMR as fast as possible.

TripleSteal-

As always, people say my game strategy is bad but they dont provide any arguments. I dont care.

well, all the four core items u got are highly suboptimal for pa///

yasha is senseless, you dont need attack speed neither benefit from +16 agi that much. if you were planning to get manta, firstly you should have bought it earlier, and secondly you needed different items to make manta fit.
daedauls is suboptimal if you need dmg, and dmg is not what you need in the first place
vlads < HoD for pa. Higher price, less lifesteal, no possibility to get satanic that is must-have item for pa later.
shadow blade. i love this item, and its surprisingly viable on heroes like wk, slardar, etc, but not pa. you already got enough escape/initiation with ur blink.

bkb and basher were must-have items in this game due to opponents' pick

OK TripleSteal-,

You have good arguments but I think that your misstake is that you assume that I play PA more or less in the ordinary way.

Yes, I usually dont buy yasha on motred.
daedauls has the highest or second highest DPS/gold in the game. and it does increase my chances to one- or two-shot the opponents
vlads make the creep waves larger which is good for split push also give me the mana reg that I need. I can still get satanic if i want.
sb is more then initiation and escape. U can use it during the fight and then start fighting again etc. etc. etc.

okay
just one more idea about daedalus. and thats actually why ppl rarely get daedalus unless its 5th-6th slot on pa
pa's greatest strength is her massive damage due to blink as increase plus ulty, and her weakness is low HP pool - its quite easy to nuke her; and also lack of disables. Your marginal revenue of investing in getting rid of your weaknesses is much higher than improving your pluses even more. Just like a simply maths model, if you got

f(x,y) = (x^2)*(y^2). x0 = 1; y0 = 5;
and u got 1 point you can add to either x or y -> you benefit more if you add it to x.

edit: i just realized ive written wrong and counter-intuitive function. i changed it to more logical one.

You are wrong if you think you'll have a better games in VHS bracket.

TripleSteal-

You assume that you need items to get rid of this "weakness". I adapt the play style in order to eliminate the weakness. One easy example of this is to play PA like she are Nature Prophet instead of a main carry.

isnt this the famed headress daggerless pa

boots, bfury, domi, bkb, basher, satanic. this is the standard pa build, works fine in 99% of the cases. in that game you should have rushed bkb. vladi + desolator its just for when you own really hard since begin.

also, hit creeps for 4-5 non-crit hits. this way, when you blink on enemy hero, you will crit for sure.

bfury has an almost usless dps/gold. especially if we count the time during the gathering of the parts for this item.

Bfury is not about dps, it's about the cleavage kid.

Messiah

LOL. What are you going to do with your cleave if not DPS+splashDPS. Attract girls?

@triple

f(y,y) = Q

Caesar,

"boots, bfury, domi, bkb, basher, satanic. this is the standard pa build, works fine in 99% of the cases."

This is a interesting and also bold statement.

Let us look into this with a more scientific approach:

Number of heroes = 110 = a
Number of items in the game = 16*3 - 1 +24*3 -2 +15= 132 = b
Number of wearable items during a single moment during one game = 10*6 +6=66 = c
Number of different orders to maximize the abilities and stats for one hero (assuming only 4 abilities for each hero) = 25 = d
Number of ways to distribute the skill points for one hero = 4*4*4*4*11=2,816 = e
Number of standard team strategies = 5 = f
Number of players/playstyles during on month = 11,000,000 = g

n! = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial
A low estimation of the number of possible different Dota2 games with Phantom Assassin = PA

PA = (a-1)! * b! * c * d! * e! * f * f * g! = (100-1)!*132!*66*25*2816!*5*5*11000000! = a number larger than the number of all atoms in the entire solar system. I don’t have any tool to calculate this number but still, this is a very large number.

Do you still claim that the item build that you suggested above will be the best choice in 99% of all this possible games?

In my opinion, this build that you suggest is probably the best choice in less then 5% of all these possible games.

LOL, with your cleave you are gonna attack creeps and be 6 slotted by min 30

i like when people buy bf as dps item, its funny

Hi s5,
Since you are so convinced of the DPS/gold effectivness of bfury, can you please show us your calculation, or at least your reasoning?
Also, it would be fun if you compare bfury DPS+spalshDPS/gold with other items that you think are the best alternatives for a high DPS/gold on PA.

But when you do this, please, in some way, include the DPS/gold effectivness from sub items that make up the items we are discussing. Otherwise it will just be misleading.

I mean, you allready know this, but please just show us how you reason.

edit: I think I need to clarify this, when I write spalshDPS I mean the cleave DPS from the bfury.

lets say there is a stack, that YOU made with helm of le dominteur, lets say its triple or quad stack , and lets say you have sange and yasha, or you have battlefury. with which item do you think you will get that gold in 10 seconds or less?

and again if you think that bf is for dps, you are mistaken, maybe sometimes you can get it for the cleave against illusion heroes such as pl if your team cant deal with him in any other way.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but the idea of a Battlefury for PA is indeed the increased farm speed and cleave damage for fights. This is a CM game, so we should assume that your supports are stacking both the jungle and ancients, which your cleave and high damage + evasion will help you rice them quickly.

If they don't, there's really no point in playing CM at all since those games are not going to be too different from normal AP games, but if you insist, that's where getting a HoD instead of a Vlad's would come into play, since you can convert a creep and stack ancients yourself.

Now, there's an Axe in your team, so if you claim that he was hogging up all the jungle farm and ancients, I'll insist that there's no point in playing CM.

and dude stop thinking that your trashy 2k mmr builds will help you win games, your supports had same damage as you, and your items were extremely retarded.

let me clarify this to you, mr clarification, they had 300 stuns and hexes > but you decide bkb is for poosy
they have mostly squishy heroes, heroes who you can easily kill with a basher/abysall instead of a daedalus.
qop had 3 deaths, you know why? cuz you had no basher/abysal.
all your kills are 100% made on poor lion when his skills were on cd and he didnt have dagger+staff yet, and witch doctor.
your ultra retarded build couldnt compete with fucking qop with 1 item(hex) he could just fuck you all the ways he wanted, which he did, i assume.

oh and you think 4400 games are supposed to be skilled

I have actually made this kind of calculation for 35 different items. Not on this advanced level that s5 has, however.

I did a ranking of items on damage/gold/hit. NOT DPS/gold.
Bfury has a ratio of 1 vs one target. More vs more targets ofc., its simple mathematics to account for the cleave damage/gold for a given number of targets.
Wraith band has a ratio of 1.9 vs one target.
MKB 2,3 ratio.
Orchid with damage buff has 3,9 = 100*(1,3*damage/price+0,3*100/1000) [notice that I did assume 100 hero damage from stats and other items]
I divide with 1000 in order to decrease the magnitude of the ratio.
Eye of Skadi 0,4.

Just looked at the drafting. Why did your team pick PA when lion was first-picked?

s5: "oh and you think 4400 games are supposed to be skilled".

Did I say or imply this? Sorry for that then.

@ OP, most of those builds will never be optimal on PA in any situation, doing some completely irrelevant math doesn't make you right . sure powers/phase , Bfurry, BKB, satanic, and abyssal wont be your 5 go to items every single game, and your not always going to make them in that exact order even if you do get them.

However if you are going to stray away from conventional builds on a hero you should have a reason for doing so, the conventional builds aren't just random compilations of items that everyone has agreed are correct, people have done the math to see how they can get as much damage as possible, stay alive in team fights and farm their next item(s) quickly. These builds have been tested in more games then you could ever hope to play your self.
yes Vlads can be better then HoD, if your team needs the armor to stay alive, or benefits a lot from the life steal/bonus damage, or if you want a UMA that wont stack with life steal but don't make it just to be different. You might be able to get away with skipping BKB if the other team has no lockdown, but that wasn't the case this game. (I really don't think crit b4 basher/abyssal is ever going to be correct in any game)

the thing is that you just threw together a bunch of sub optimal PA items because you felt like being different, not because those items were better in this particular game.

also I don't think your ever going to have a good game doing Captains Mode if you don't have a stack.

The Number 12

Can you explain to me why the mathematics is irrelevant? I think it is a very good way to show my point. Exaggurated yes, but still very clear.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1102202967

dagon is mathematically better in a 2 second fight, amirite?

build up is a big factor
special effects also

s5

I guess so. But it dont give you much dps vs creeps, towers and raxes.

smurf players spreading downs all over dota................so just another day and the life of a Dotabuffer

Your mathematics are irrelevant if they are only going to calculate damage and total cost of the items.

A BKB will give you less overall damage, but it will allow you to actually hit your targets, did your math calculate this?
Same goes for basher. You bash people, they stay in place, you actually hit them, your DPS suddenly increases with an item that gives less damage. I mean, it's not nuclear physics, it's just common sense.

[Lk].Zano

Did you claim that damage/gold is irrelevant for an item? If so, I am just not going to talk to you anymore.

Hmm did you actually assume that I dont consider more things than dmaage/gold after I posted a comment about the number of possible Dota2 games with PA = (100-1)!*132!*66*25*2816!*5*5*11000000!

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1364633462
hey look look, a game for you to test this new meta build.
buy sny & manta, insanE DpsSs

Yes, getting all those items in that game actually makes me think you are indeed considering no more than just damage/gold.

daedalus haters

it's still the best dps in the game, and it makes ur damage output way more consistent

obviously abyssal and BKB (sometimes manta) are usually mandatory, but if after that the enemy doesn't have butterflies and I don't need a satanic yet I'm buying a goddamn daedalus

Why the fuck you in vhs bracket when youre so braindead boys? Let me have popcorn n keep going

"play PA like she are Nature Prophet instead of a main carry." good stuff mate.

because mikasa im not braindead so even if i buy retarded redundant items i can still win :]

i have 10+ win % over you on pa btw

80 td nature prophet

@ Lyra < sup45, The math you showed was irrelevant because it has nothing to do with actually optimizing the hero or playing her more effectively. the number of the possible item/skill/team combinations on PA has nothing to do with the number of item combinations that are ideal (or even OK). The fact is that there are only a few builds that are good enough to not handicap the hero, obviously those builds aren't 100% set in stone, there is plenty of wiggle room for situational items, but there are less then 20 "good" builds for any hero (and often less then 3).

You also talked about the damage to cost ratio, which again means nothing, the item that lets you hit the hardest is most often not the item that will allow you to deal the most damage. Even The DPS to cost ratio means very little, and that is a step up from what you were showing. Most of the items that people build on PA are not for the flat DPS, but rather for the ability to do the most damage. Take BKB for example it only gives you 24 damage for 3975 gold, but it allows you to do more damage over all since you don't get stunned and busted down the second you blink in.

Similarly abyssal doesn't give as much DPS as Daedalus, but it does give you a 2 sec stun, and the ability to bash on hit. these things are more valuable then flat damage, since you can not only get more attacks off but also can prevent your opponent from casting their spells or using their attacks, which will keep you and your team mates alive longer in fights, which will let your team do more damage as a whole.

more than the spells or attacks, keeping people from popping ghost scepters is the only thing that lets you stay relevant

I started all this bullcrap, let me end it.
Best way to deal with team flame is to simply use your mic. It might sound stupid however i almost always get very respectful teamates when i use my mic and talk very calm.Not only that but also when other people use the mic i would relax and know that their is someone on my team whose able to communicate better with us simply by using a mic. If you dont have a mic i suggest you just make yourself a better player.Im not the best player to be honest, however i dont get called feeder or noob. I might get called jerk from time to time for simply make a small mistake such as taking last hits as a support.You need to learn to use ping i actually downloaded your replay to analyze why the fuck you are on such a large losing streak and i see that not only do you make stupid item choices but you also make stupid skill upgrades... On you pa game you costed them the game not everyone else.To be honest i would also be calling you a feeder and noob because of how you are playing.When you went mid against a lina you didnt get a single point of dagger until level 10 and you execute gank exremely poorly.You keep the wards in your inventory for more than 8 min which i dont understand and went for stats in the early game.Against a lina that constantly is harassing you with her nukes i would get stiffling dagger instead of some stats gain.Sure you can tank more damage but really your not going to be able to get much last hits if you keep playing like that safely.At 15 min you have a 278 gpm and a 359 xpm which isnt good since you had taken the mid position.So early game your team had a lot of advantages you coudlve done something. You never left mid until around 14 minutes.Then you would say shit about your own team thou this post was about rude teamates?If someone is talking shit don't say anything.100 percent assure you they would be quiet after 1 won teamfight.After some 25 min you went full shit talking mode.You need to not say anything.Good luck on getting better at dota!Im sorry if i sounded mean but im just trying to help you.I understand you might take this rude but this is just for you.

Jdf8 i was typing that shit for op.. Not you braindead.. Yeah you got high wr.. Congrats B-)