Ofc it cannot be fully trusted. But by checking item winrates for certian heroes you can determine which heroes can use the item well. Not hero winrates with item, but item winrates with hero.
Following this logic, you can see that out of heroes that actually have possible (yet rare) builds with an E-Blade, the most winning heroes are: Meepo, Drow, Riki, Necrophos and (ultimately the best E-Blade carrier with huge pick and win rate)Mirana.
Or best Diffusal heroes are: Meepo, PA, FV, Spectre, Slark and Riki.
And so on with pretty much any item I suppose.
I thought Eblade would have been bought less than 3. Nice.
dudes you can't argue eblade vs dragon lance/hurricane cus hurricane makes distant which is something drow needs. Even if you eblade yourself how are you getting distance on a drow? Worthless item. It's like trying to argue blink sucks cus it has no stats.
I won't, because you misinterpret things. I said, and I quote out of heroes that actually have possible (yet rare) builds. You mean a maiden/ss/dazzle might actualyl build an eaglesong? but if you look only at heroes that are potentially good with the item, you see that Spectre/Ursa/Drow/Terrorblade and PA are actual leaders of the Eaglesong build. Which is not so bad, isn't it?
If you suck at analysing statistics, that's your fucking problem.
And I'm not even suggesting Eblade VS D-Lance or Hurricane Pike. Just E-Blade as a magical nuke/Agility spike.
Yeah, the pick rate on items is likely the best way to determine if the winrate with the item is legitimate. Dunno why you wrote that in caps, you think I don't understand or something?
77% winrate,even with 5000 purchases is still proof that the item is good, at least to some extent. It's unorthodox, as proven by the purchase count, but still can be quite good.
Items with comparable buy rate are: bottle, orb of venom, blade mail... And yet, none of them have a comparable win rate.
As I said, If you were to cross reference hero winrates with certain items and the theoretical viability of those items on the hero, you can actually find decent items for heroes using the dotabuff item section and your own experience.
I'd confess if I was wrong, and that E-Blade is by all means a bad pickup on Drow.... But you said it yourself....
i'm not saying it's completely useless, because there can be times where it's used.
I said, you can buy the item to spike your agility more than any other item and also ghost people. You proceed to insult me, call me retarded, only to say that the item is good for ghosting when facing slark/jugg once another person points it out...
Decide on your position for once, and stick to it.
low buy rate but high win rate means the item is very good, but still highly situational. which is kinda my point, I guess
You can't know if these games were already won at the time the E-Blade was purchased. For all we know, the E-blade could have been used to instagib a support at the ultra-late game clash, if combined with allied support nuke such as Purifying Flames by the Oracle. And that's probably almost as likely.
The fact, that the item has been actually bought in the TI by this hero, alone is proof that the item is a considerable choice for the hero, even if it's the optimal purchase only like 5% of the time.
I understand perfectly why manta is good, and no it's not because of what you just said, There's diffusal for that.
Cookie here doesn't and that's his problem. Hope manta riki stomps him in his beloved 6k.
anecdotal evidence from your experiance proves nothing. give me a godamn example, i'll judge him
if you give me anyone who is below 6k i'll reject your example. i want you to give me a highest tier player, the one who has the best itemisation, someone 6k+, then we'll conclude you actually being right for once in your pathetic life.
i don't want an example of some shitty 4k who has 40% winrate and only 40 matches. i want a real player!
and i want it to be consistent, not just 1 example. i need a player, not a cherry picked game.
manta dispells dust, so does difusal an item that lets you slow your enemies down and combo that with your backstab + smoke.
well manta can also give illusions who work well with diffusal, and diffusal has a cd so you can't spam dispel stuff and purge enemies with it, idk manta seems fine on riki but kind of expensive.
i do agree that with an difusal it would be better, but the manaburn damage isn't that efficent anyways. meanwhile if you build sny and more slow items like echo sabre and damage items like mkb and stuff; with that you'll have way more dps
all the slows will stack up and you'll be able to dish out 100x more damage.
it again goes back to the point of efficency compared to other items, it's just not as efficent as an sny. but i won't refuse that it can be good in some scenarios where you do need to dispell a lot.
Ok, my bad, the guy I saw spamming manta is just a lowly 4k. But regardless, manta illusions get riki's invisibility passive, which makes them extremely disturptive and good for scouting enemies.
at level 7 drow you should either be 4-1-1-1 or 3-2-1-1 or 2-3-1-1, if you max aura as 1-1-4-1 you are a retard, especially when you play against heroes that have escape abilities, (storm/qop/puck) if you're 4-4-1-2 on level 11 you can guaranteed almost kill every single hero in that game unless he/she has insane amount of armor. I've had multiple times where I decided once to go for this 1-1-4-1 build and every time I almost killed an enemy he escaped with low hp, why? Because he could use his spells, if i had 1-2 more sec silence he would be dead. I never understood this ''1-1-4-1'' skill build on level 7 when my whole team is ranged, who cares about the little range damage in early game? you can get kills easy with frost arrows and silence instead.
vile you're still misinterpreting the point here, manta on riki is a 1:30 efficent item compared to the most efficent items, making it trash but not too trash.
but drow eblade is a 1:1000 efficiency item. making it complete and utter garbage
you are comparing a pro sample size of 60 to a pub in dosens of millions, do you ever consider the sample size or just pull shit out of your ass and throw it at me.
that item was efficient in 3 out of 60 pro games in the last turnament compared to it's more efficent items aquila/dragon who were picked in pretty much every match.
actually you know what, i went back and checked because you annoyeme so much. i wasnt looking at the dates.
you made an almost good argument which i wanted to check, well i wasn't surprised to see that you're wrong again.
the games that had eblade were from months before, in the qualifiers. meaning these aren't tier 1 pro teams nor do those games belong in the international, meaning you actually were right on 1 thing which i overlooked(the dates)
the actual ratio of actual items compared to eblade is actually infinite, no eblades were purchased.
also no, the items included in popular guides are non stop copy/pasted by low level pubs because like you, they don't know how to itemise properly so they just copy some very specific build some pro did once and then proceed to feed. or have shitty claims like you, i'm 100% sure you copied that eblade from that 4k, didn't you?
i'll prove you this one without stats, htere's about more than 10,000~ players above 6k.
where do you think the stats those millions of purchases of items in a week come from? there's no way that 10000 players can play a 10 million games all together in 1 week. if this was true, than every 6k+ player would have to play 1000 games of drow every week.
these stats come from all the player base, but hte majority of the player base IS below 3k. meaning again, you're wrong.
Nope, I just know that endgame Drow has an unreasonable amount of Agility, meaning a lot of burst damage with Eblade.
As I said, pretty much a Dagon5 that costs only 4.7k gold and also gives the biggest Agility from one single item in the entire game.
If you have at least one Dagon carrier or a nuker in your team, E-Blade should even be considered a good pickup on Drow imo, assuming you want to nuke down certain targets with your team as efficiently as possible.
it conflicts with the playstyle!!! the only thing that's unreasonable is the amount of times i've explained 1 thing to you, and for you to forget about it and go back to your old shitty theory.
so for that last message i'd recommend to go re-read all the previous messages.
edit: before you make another stupid argument, i'm gonna turn that one down.
why doesn't it work? it's because of the position 1-5 farming system
this system as everyone obviously knows it, the pos 1 gets most farm and pos 5 gets least.
but have you ever asked yourself why? it's because these pos 1 heroes are item dependent and pos 5 are only ability dependent, meaning for those heroes to be efficient they don't even need items
also that pos 5s cant work well with items at all.
same works with any position inbetween, it starts at pos 5 working with the team by supporting them but never being greedy for himself. pos 4 supporting with smaller items like urn, medalion etc. but still all the items they get help the team. only greedy items they'd get is like a blink for positioning, which still helps the team overall in a teamfight due to some pos 4's having aoe teamfight abilities(SK, ES). and same with every ohter role descending to carry which is greediest for himself, never his teammates.
so again, you're not playing a support drow and somehow got lucky enough to get 5k gold for an eblade to help your nyx or something.
you're playing drow as a pos 1 carry, who itemizes for herself. not her team.
Only conflicts if you're using the E-Blade on a target that you're going to attack, and not on the target you want to ghost. Or you can use it to kill targets if you're skilled enough to time it properly because it hits harder than autoattacks and has greater range.
Even with Frost arrows, enemy may still use a force staff to try and save someone with 20% health left. You probably have a blink anyway tho.
IT CONFLICTS WITH THE PLAYSTYLE OF THE HERO AND THE ROLE!
If you were pos 3 that could be viable, if you are pos 1 it just conflicts completely. you don't play a pos 3 as a pos 1 in the safelane, nor the other way around.
all you did in your message is confirm what i said about how shit it is, without even knowing it yourself because you're too dyslexic.
just take your own logic for it please, i'm gonna eddit your comment:
Only conflicts if you're using the BATLLE FURY on a target/tree that you're going to cut down, and not on the target you want to ghost. Or you can use it to kill TREES AND WARDS if you're skilled enough to time it properly because it hits harder than autoattacks and has greater CLEAVE.
Even with Frost arrows, enemy may still use a force staff to try and save someone with 20% health left. You probably have a blink anyway tho.
so with your logic, a battlefury is a very strategically great item on drow because it lets her use it in some situation that she'd need to cut a tree down. also the damage bonus from it is amazing :)
any hero technically can be played in any position, it's just that drow is godamn garbage at pos 3 in this meta. because she lacks everything a pos 3 needs.
on the other side, no i don't want to start an argument with you on why a drow can't be pos 3 either.
edit: nvm, you finally admit defeat. that's the first step to improvement, now go play those solo ranked games i told you to.
Ofc it cannot be fully trusted. But by checking item winrates for certian heroes you can determine which heroes can use the item well. Not hero winrates with item, but item winrates with hero.
Following this logic, you can see that out of heroes that actually have possible (yet rare) builds with an E-Blade, the most winning heroes are: Meepo, Drow, Riki, Necrophos and (ultimately the best E-Blade carrier with huge pick and win rate)Mirana.
Or best Diffusal heroes are: Meepo, PA, FV, Spectre, Slark and Riki.
And so on with pretty much any item I suppose.
I thought Eblade would have been bought less than 3. Nice.
it really doesn't, those stats lie. i even proved you completely wrong. it doesn't matter what hero it is on
go play 100 drow games, you won't have 75% winrate if you buy eblade every single match.
from your logic, it seems like a crystal maiden/shadow shaman/dazzle are the best eaglesong carries: http://www.dotabuff.com/items/eaglesong
with a whopping 85% winrate, lol destroys that riki/drow/am XD
this week eblade has a 77% on drow: http://www.dotabuff.com/items/ethereal-blade
but only 60% on morphling :(
wanna know why? drow had 5000 matches with eblade, morphling had 570,000!!!
think logically, dont pick fake biased stats towards your claims.
dudes you can't argue eblade vs dragon lance/hurricane cus hurricane makes distant which is something drow needs. Even if you eblade yourself how are you getting distance on a drow? Worthless item. It's like trying to argue blink sucks cus it has no stats.
i just wan't you to actually just confess you're wrong on everything you said here and i'll stop.
I won't, because you misinterpret things. I said, and I quote out of heroes that actually have possible (yet rare) builds. You mean a maiden/ss/dazzle might actualyl build an eaglesong? but if you look only at heroes that are potentially good with the item, you see that Spectre/Ursa/Drow/Terrorblade and PA are actual leaders of the Eaglesong build. Which is not so bad, isn't it?
If you suck at analysing statistics, that's your fucking problem.
And I'm not even suggesting Eblade VS D-Lance or Hurricane Pike. Just E-Blade as a magical nuke/Agility spike.
YES EXACTLY BECAUSE THOSE HEROES NEED THAT, MAIDEN SS DAZZLE DONT, LOOK AT THE STATS: THEY BOUGHT IT LIKE 50 TIMES
THE OTHER HEROES WHO NEED IT BOUGHT IT 50,000 TIMES
this conversation is still going on? lol
i'm actually starting to think that youre LITERALLY mentally challenged.
and i feel sorry for you bro
Yeah, the pick rate on items is likely the best way to determine if the winrate with the item is legitimate. Dunno why you wrote that in caps, you think I don't understand or something?
Just don't reply to my posts again, thank you.
so HOW EXACTLY are you gonna prove that eblade is good on drow when it has 77% winrate and 5000 purchases, compared to the millions on other heroes?
You don't get to chose if i reply to your posts or not
You care too much about the opinion of a guy you'll never meet in game lol.
come out as a man and confess that you're wrong for once in your little bitch boy life.
i'll never meet him again, but i have to insult my own intelligence by reading his posts every time i open up a valid discussion
xD
x9999999 on what Cookie says, this other guy is just genuinely retarded i summon lawliepop to ban that fucking troll
77% winrate,even with 5000 purchases is still proof that the item is good, at least to some extent. It's unorthodox, as proven by the purchase count, but still can be quite good.
Items with comparable buy rate are: bottle, orb of venom, blade mail... And yet, none of them have a comparable win rate.
As I said, If you were to cross reference hero winrates with certain items and the theoretical viability of those items on the hero, you can actually find decent items for heroes using the dotabuff item section and your own experience.
I'd confess if I was wrong, and that E-Blade is by all means a bad pickup on Drow.... But you said it yourself....
I said, you can buy the item to spike your agility more than any other item and also ghost people. You proceed to insult me, call me retarded, only to say that the item is good for ghosting when facing slark/jugg once another person points it out...
Decide on your position for once, and stick to it.
low buy rate but high win rate means the item is very good, but still highly situational. which is kinda my point, I guess
NO IT DOESN'T BECAUSE THE SAMPLE SIZE IS 1%
THOSE GAMES THOSE PEOPLE WOULD'VE WON EVEN WITHOUT THAT ITEM, SAME WITH CRYSTAL MADIEN EAGLESONG
You can't know if these games were already won at the time the E-Blade was purchased. For all we know, the E-blade could have been used to instagib a support at the ultra-late game clash, if combined with allied support nuke such as Purifying Flames by the Oracle. And that's probably almost as likely.
The fact, that the item has been actually bought in the TI by this hero, alone is proof that the item is a considerable choice for the hero, even if it's the optimal purchase only like 5% of the time.
so the rosh was necessairy 97% of the time, even if it wasnt used?
necessary for what?
As I said, you have to use your head to determine which items might possibly be good on the hero, not just look at statistics alone.
EXCEPT YOU DON'T USE YOUR HEAD. YOU'RE PROVIDING ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS.
give me 1 argument from you that i haven't proven wrong
E-Blade can be a decent pickup on the Drow Ranger.
Also, according to your logic, Manta is dogshit on Riki too, right?
yep, good that you can actually logically think. riki manta is shit. riki manta pickup only 100k , defusal- 3Million, defusal(2)- 2.8 million
why? because sny actually works better for that hero's playstyle.
manta is a decent pickup, on a scale of 1:30
so is etheral blade on drow, meaning it's a SHIT pickup, compared to pretty much majority drow game having dragon lance.
the decency of an item is compared to others, not itself.
MEANING THAT ITEM IS SHIT
So tell me, why I see VHS players spamming manta riki with 70% overall winrate?
Cus you can dispel dust or silence with it, it's actually pretty good if enemies have that.
I understand perfectly why manta is good, and no it's not because of what you just said, There's diffusal for that.
Cookie here doesn't and that's his problem. Hope manta riki stomps him in his beloved 6k.
anecdotal evidence from your experiance proves nothing. give me a godamn example, i'll judge him
if you give me anyone who is below 6k i'll reject your example. i want you to give me a highest tier player, the one who has the best itemisation, someone 6k+, then we'll conclude you actually being right for once in your pathetic life.
i don't want an example of some shitty 4k who has 40% winrate and only 40 matches. i want a real player!
and i want it to be consistent, not just 1 example. i need a player, not a cherry picked game.
manta dispells dust, so does difusal an item that lets you slow your enemies down and combo that with your backstab + smoke.
i don't see a manta being able to do that.
provide me with evidance, or we conclude that your anecdotal evidence is a lie.
well manta can also give illusions who work well with diffusal, and diffusal has a cd so you can't spam dispel stuff and purge enemies with it, idk manta seems fine on riki but kind of expensive.
You can't make the same case for eblade drow.
i do agree that with an difusal it would be better, but the manaburn damage isn't that efficent anyways. meanwhile if you build sny and more slow items like echo sabre and damage items like mkb and stuff; with that you'll have way more dps
all the slows will stack up and you'll be able to dish out 100x more damage.
it again goes back to the point of efficency compared to other items, it's just not as efficent as an sny. but i won't refuse that it can be good in some scenarios where you do need to dispell a lot.
Ok, my bad, the guy I saw spamming manta is just a lowly 4k. But regardless, manta illusions get riki's invisibility passive, which makes them extremely disturptive and good for scouting enemies.
at level 7 drow you should either be 4-1-1-1 or 3-2-1-1 or 2-3-1-1, if you max aura as 1-1-4-1 you are a retard, especially when you play against heroes that have escape abilities, (storm/qop/puck) if you're 4-4-1-2 on level 11 you can guaranteed almost kill every single hero in that game unless he/she has insane amount of armor. I've had multiple times where I decided once to go for this 1-1-4-1 build and every time I almost killed an enemy he escaped with low hp, why? Because he could use his spells, if i had 1-2 more sec silence he would be dead. I never understood this ''1-1-4-1'' skill build on level 7 when my whole team is ranged, who cares about the little range damage in early game? you can get kills easy with frost arrows and silence instead.
vile you're still misinterpreting the point here, manta on riki is a 1:30 efficent item compared to the most efficent items, making it trash but not too trash.
but drow eblade is a 1:1000 efficiency item. making it complete and utter garbage
Well, apparently, according to our pro scene, E-blade is a 1:20 efficiency item, contrary to our pub statistics.
you are comparing a pro sample size of 60 to a pub in dosens of millions, do you ever consider the sample size or just pull shit out of your ass and throw it at me.
that item was efficient in 3 out of 60 pro games in the last turnament compared to it's more efficent items aquila/dragon who were picked in pretty much every match.
No items that are included in popular guides are ever built in low level pubs anyway (the majority).
actually you know what, i went back and checked because you annoyeme so much. i wasnt looking at the dates.
you made an almost good argument which i wanted to check, well i wasn't surprised to see that you're wrong again.
the games that had eblade were from months before, in the qualifiers. meaning these aren't tier 1 pro teams nor do those games belong in the international, meaning you actually were right on 1 thing which i overlooked(the dates)
the actual ratio of actual items compared to eblade is actually infinite, no eblades were purchased.
also no, the items included in popular guides are non stop copy/pasted by low level pubs because like you, they don't know how to itemise properly so they just copy some very specific build some pro did once and then proceed to feed. or have shitty claims like you, i'm 100% sure you copied that eblade from that 4k, didn't you?
i'll prove you this one without stats, htere's about more than 10,000~ players above 6k.
where do you think the stats those millions of purchases of items in a week come from? there's no way that 10000 players can play a 10 million games all together in 1 week. if this was true, than every 6k+ player would have to play 1000 games of drow every week.
these stats come from all the player base, but hte majority of the player base IS below 3k. meaning again, you're wrong.
Nope, I just know that endgame Drow has an unreasonable amount of Agility, meaning a lot of burst damage with Eblade.
As I said, pretty much a Dagon5 that costs only 4.7k gold and also gives the biggest Agility from one single item in the entire game.
If you have at least one Dagon carrier or a nuker in your team, E-Blade should even be considered a good pickup on Drow imo, assuming you want to nuke down certain targets with your team as efficiently as possible.
it conflicts with the playstyle!!! the only thing that's unreasonable is the amount of times i've explained 1 thing to you, and for you to forget about it and go back to your old shitty theory.
so for that last message i'd recommend to go re-read all the previous messages.
edit: before you make another stupid argument, i'm gonna turn that one down.
why doesn't it work? it's because of the position 1-5 farming system
this system as everyone obviously knows it, the pos 1 gets most farm and pos 5 gets least.
but have you ever asked yourself why? it's because these pos 1 heroes are item dependent and pos 5 are only ability dependent, meaning for those heroes to be efficient they don't even need items
also that pos 5s cant work well with items at all.
same works with any position inbetween, it starts at pos 5 working with the team by supporting them but never being greedy for himself. pos 4 supporting with smaller items like urn, medalion etc. but still all the items they get help the team. only greedy items they'd get is like a blink for positioning, which still helps the team overall in a teamfight due to some pos 4's having aoe teamfight abilities(SK, ES). and same with every ohter role descending to carry which is greediest for himself, never his teammates.
so again, you're not playing a support drow and somehow got lucky enough to get 5k gold for an eblade to help your nyx or something.
you're playing drow as a pos 1 carry, who itemizes for herself. not her team.
aka it conflicts with the play style.
Only conflicts if you're using the E-Blade on a target that you're going to attack, and not on the target you want to ghost. Or you can use it to kill targets if you're skilled enough to time it properly because it hits harder than autoattacks and has greater range.
Even with Frost arrows, enemy may still use a force staff to try and save someone with 20% health left. You probably have a blink anyway tho.
@Lawlie pls ban @Vile Thoughts already thx
IT CONFLICTS WITH THE PLAYSTYLE OF THE HERO AND THE ROLE!
If you were pos 3 that could be viable, if you are pos 1 it just conflicts completely. you don't play a pos 3 as a pos 1 in the safelane, nor the other way around.
all you did in your message is confirm what i said about how shit it is, without even knowing it yourself because you're too dyslexic.
just take your own logic for it please, i'm gonna eddit your comment:
so with your logic, a battlefury is a very strategically great item on drow because it lets her use it in some situation that she'd need to cut a tree down. also the damage bonus from it is amazing :)
My reaction reading this thread
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
So, Drow cannot play pos 3? It must be pos 1?
Cause I don't recall saying it's best on pos 1 Drow.
Anyway, I quit, bye.
any hero technically can be played in any position, it's just that drow is godamn garbage at pos 3 in this meta. because she lacks everything a pos 3 needs.
on the other side, no i don't want to start an argument with you on why a drow can't be pos 3 either.
edit: nvm, you finally admit defeat. that's the first step to improvement, now go play those solo ranked games i told you to.
Singsing has the best builds ask him ;)
I'll just leave it here...
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2517431895
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2564022958
can't you just take it back?
also the other one doesn't even have a drow
^But it has AM. =)
my insides are bleeding, please have mercy on me. STOP.
how do you have that am build and anything less than 1.1k gpm
Now how do you feel, mr Cookie. You told aomeone around 10 times in 2 days that 'eblade doesn't fit drow's playstyle'.
Personally I'd only put more than one point in her aura if I had 1 or two ranged allies who would benefit their lanes with a stronger right click.