General DiscussionWhen should people get bkb and dagger?

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/6062784567

I'm guessing you just want to justify that 13 mins midas purchase.

I am testing things out. Lets say I got the dagger at 13 mins instead of the midas at 13 mins. Would I have more items at 20 mins or no? My team was just afking around mid. how would my 13 min dagger help me? Instead I got the midas and then at 17 mins got the dagger when we can actually fight and use it.

The downside of making a midas is only one.
If the enemy cores come online and decide to push against you, then the enemy cores have their power spike item, while you are walking around with a farming item.

Something as simple as.
Axe-> 13 mins midas -> 17 mins dagger

What if 2 of the enemy cores(assuming you destroyed the safelane) had their first power spike item at 14 min and they decided to push your twrs? Then you just threw away the 2.2k lead you had. I've won against/ lost with so many core players who just take their advantage lightly and then throw away the game making stupid items.
ex. 30 mins in game: Pa is owning, is making skadi instead of bkb against a triple disable lineup. 33 mins: PA gets her skadi. 35 mins: Enemy team manages to get hex and mkb on cores. 39 mins enemy ends the game.

As a pos 1, midas at some point is justified(still stupid item), but for a pos 3 you are supposed to be the meatshield and a decoy, making space for your cores.
The part with team afking around is a external factor. But by making midas on a tempo hero like axe, you just reduce the "threat" value of your hero.

Enemy pos 3 with a midas, is either gonna soak up farm from his pos 1, or is gonna be a sitting duck if he decides to farm in lane.
It's only a matter of fact if the enemy can capitalize on this mistakes.

I had multiple games where I got the early dagger. Nothing happened out of it. You lose networth. It is a 2000 gold item that gives u nothing but mobility. If there is no fights mobility is nothing you are basically fighting with 2000 networth down. I would much rather have the needed items to fight mid game then trying force issues in the early game.

dagger gives the ability to start a fight if you do not have any other way of starting it unless u 5 man arena brawl which does not happen very often. BKB gives the spell immunity ability. Example: I remember people going vanguard on axe before dagger a couple years ago which wasn't the started and they got flamed. I even know a person from pro players 2,3 years ago who told me: When im making vanguard on axe its bad, but when someone pro player makes it it looks good. Now almost every str offlane hero goes vanguard for being tanky. As dagger for an axe its a must buy either early game or later. I remember a couple years ago where if u dont get dagger around 9-13m as the offlane the hole line up goes down if u get it around 15-20m if ure underfarmed. If ure offlane player items like crimson guard, pipe,force, dagger, euls makes you enough tanky for you to not need to go bkb. In my offlane games im tending to not go bkb at all unless its unnessary for heroes like mars, doom where i need to survive longer. Heroes like tide,axe (bbk some times is good), doom (same way), mars (is good) you need to decide yourself whether u need it or not. If u've multiple heroes initiating the fight either be pos 2 or 4 then u can delay your dagger with 1 item before.

Examples:
Axe: Vanguard -> Dagger -> else items a.k.a. manta, shard, pipe, etc...
Tide: Mek, greaves, pipe, dagger (you can go even 2nd item after mek) or force staff, shiva, refresher
Doom: Dagger with the centaur stomp abiliy neutral creep, (some times shadow blade), bkb, shiva, refresher, else...
Mars: Dagger or euls (or both but first going for euls), bkb
Batrider: BOTS, dagger or else, bkb
Magnus: Dagger, PT, phase, greaves (all are situation), bkb or not
Cent: Vanguard, dagger, else

It's not your teams responsibility to start fight when you are the p3. I just remember one guide video and I follow it till this date.
It said something like, the role of offlaner is to cause chaos. I don't wait or even expect my team to help me in my fights when I play offlane.
If my team is good, we go for gank with the intent of killing. If my team is a bunch of farmville players, I go around causing trouble and disrupting enemy team's farming pattern.
Too many players underestimate the mental boost of a "free game".
The whole purpose of 13 mins dagger is not "I will fight with this", it's the whole "threat" value of a "axe might jump me here". When a core could just casually clear a camp at half hp, if you reveal your dagger, the enemy core will spend resources on heal or will farm more safely while being constantly under a threat. apply enough pressure and they are bound to make mistakes. Capitalize on those mistakes and you win the game.
The whole reason why ppl hate techies. The most mundane task of walking from mid to top, add in techies and even if there's no mines, the whole mental pressure the hero exerts is just absurd.

I think your idea is outdated. In this meta offlane isn't the create chaos or the sack lane anymore. There were multiple buffs to items like vanguard and hood. Pushing early is just not viable and early game kills are not viable either. T2 towers have split shot it is very unlikely to push early. Games usually revolve around the 20 to 30 min mark with big team fights and roshan. There are very few people solo pushing lanes for a dagger axe to catch. Most of the time you blink in just to get 5 manned and die.

Well I gave my inputs, I prefer playing the chaotic guy and messing with enemies rather that doing agriculture for 30 mins.

Get vanguard into blademail before dagger, unless you have a very active, snowballing team that you notice rotates alot, is ready to make moves, take towers and/or invade enemy jungle. In all the other cases I'd say go blademail before dagger: you farm faster, in case you get ganked, instead of being just hard to kill you have actually high chances of trading kills on your own or even getting out alive with one or two kills, with blademail plus dagger you have 99% guaranteed solo kills on almost all heroes. A dagger alone, even if gotten early, is hardly ever enough to grant you solo kills, even with level advantage. By the time you get it your taunt duration will still be too short and you'd have no dmg, you'd have to get mega lucky with your passive even when blinking into a creep wave + enemy and even then it won't be enough almost always. Tldr leave it unless you're totally sure you have backup. You pick Axe to solo carry afk farming people while creating space and yoloing into 3 enemies at min 18 after all.

In all honesty i just don't see why you wouldn't go Blink on Axe (unlike blademail these days which just feels a bit mehh OR if for whatever reason you go Shadowblade but thats another 1k there). It gives you that initiation without having to run in and getting kited; the added chasing down; and just generally jumping in and being annoying (by blink-calling then pulling the heroes out of position).

I agree with AD.GokU that i treat playing Pos3 is making the enemy cores life as depressing as possible. If that means constantly hunting him down, stealing his farm, jumping on him to get the LHs in his camp etc great whilst creating that space for your own core.

At the end of the day pos3 Axe is the "everyone hit me please look how dangerous i am"... whilst your own cores steam-trains the enemy supports and glass cannons.

There is a big difference between not going blink on axe and purposely getting blink on axe later. Lets assume at 10 mins you are an axe with 4000 networth. That is what the average axe gets in a decent game. This can be phase boots wand dagger (1400 2250 450, yes I know we over budget by 100 gold) or it can be phase boots blademail wand (also 4000 gold in fact 125 gold less). What is the difference between these 2 builds the difference is 28 damage, 6 armor, damage return. Lets say you are ganking. You have a dagger sure you get a good a mobility or a good call but what happens if you miss the dagger. You are now less tanky and you do less damage. Lets say your team is passive you are farming neutral and creeps a lot slower. Yes believe it for not blademail is a great farming item. the 20 damage return is great for neutral and ancient farming. You will simply get more gpm than if you got the dagger. Buying the dagger is actually a huge risk as once you get it you are pressure to make plays and sometimes the game state is not ideal to "make plays"